svensknlp wrote:

Bart
NLP is all flawed in its current approach.
And when someone use spinning feelings/energy my flags go up as its simply fit into the new age and muscle testing stuff.

And your right, the approach as bandlers point been is problem and problem oriented and that isnt needed to do to get effective changework.
Its doable but require to much skill and work from both the client and practitioner.

I find the book, boring, and problemoriented.

Its also funny to note that there is no need to adress the so called problem to get the changes someone would seek or want.
Removing 100% of the NLP techniques is not just possible but doable.
As there is no need to work with current subjective reality.

Now, I got influenced and did some modeling of what Joseph Riggio did which allows a much more direct and elegant solution to define what someone wants by making a bypass of the need to solve problems.
Whats interesting the way to do it is way simpler than whats currently taught in NLP.

Robert,

First I don't agree that NLP is all flawed in its current approach. There are lots of people who come home with result after result..

On the other hand.. there are lost of people that don't get the results...

Now I don't see how you can get around the "problem" orientated approach..(even if you are not using a problem oriented and a more generative application instead...) because the starting point of the client is gonna be that he or she wants to move away from what he or she is experiencing now, which if you like it or not, label it different or not, is somehow perceived as "problematic" for the client.

(now to those who are stumbling over the word "problematic" ... well DON'T :cool: )

When the day arrives, Robert, when you come with a clear explicit model.. of what you're working on for the last 5 or+ years.. let me know..

For now I'm gonna sit back and watch the show for some time...:-)

Have fun

Bart

gabe wrote:

Bart,

Respectfully, up to this point it read as your thoughts... this last post read in some portions almost identical to a few I've read from Tom Vizzini.

Gabe,

In the explicit example I gave in reply to Steve A's question about symptom level work.. I already credited the influence of Tom V and Kim McF.

gabe wrote:

So sure under his paradygms, you are right only his stuff really works and the rest is simply symptom level change work attempting to just overpower symptoms.

Not really.

Actually ..there are quite some things we differ on...

and one of those things is explicitly the point you now mention:

gabe wrote:

...
But it always ends up in NLP techniques not being as good as his (even if there is evidence of hundreds of successful interventions plus of similarities in many things)....

gabe wrote:

I presented my opinion and I've read yours, I rather say you are right than to even attempt to get you to see things from a differnt perspectve (as humble as your humble opinion is not).

For what it's worth, I haven't seen Tom V. mention any opinion so far on the "spinning feelings" technique... so I would still see it as my humble opinion. ...

And different perspectives is why I am here... not to knock everyone dead with MY view.

Have fun

Bart

You are ok Bart... hope you feel the same way. haha

Have fun
Gabe

PS - I rather focus on whatever is good of your views and not on your "problems or mistakes" (according to my own perspective of course - which I do know is not the absolute truth) because that avoids me becoming a "problem/failings/mistakes oriented person" who critisizies people and ideas for being problematic or "problem oriented".

Having already got a hardback copy of this book, i was a little gutted to discover in waterstones yesterday the paper back version comes with a free hypno CD!

Has any got the paperback version, is it worth buying again to get the CD?

Hi Bart
going back to one of the earlier posts on this thread by you , you wrote ."One of the things that the NLP field seems to miss out time after time is that the techniques mentioned in the book (even if they are not described correctly or incomplete as you mention) are symptom level change work techniques."

I'm interested to hear how you define 'symptom level' change work? Could you please expand on your take on this.

thanks
Peter

Hi Robert
you quoted
"NLP is all flawed in its current approach" and "Now, I got influenced and did some modeling of what Joseph Riggio did which allows a much more direct and elegant solution to define what someone wants by making a bypass of the need to solve problems.
Whats interesting the way to do it is way simpler than whats currently taught in NLP."
Taught by who in NLP specifically? That's a huge sweeping generalization.

I understand what you are saying but be careful not to generalize the whole field of NLP with Richard Bandler's take on it or any one else for that matter!

Grinder by contrast would not fit into your description and no doubt there are others.

Peter

lenny
I was gutted when I put the cd on as I have already heard it,its part of a six cd set personal enhancement series,I was so excited when I got the book yesturday really thought I was in for a treat,so unless you haven't heard the series then you will be in for a treat.

What does, "gutted" mean?

Hi Bob

It means "disappointed"

Jay Budzynski wrote:

Hi Bob

It means "disappointed"

Exactly like a fish that's just been filleted would feel.

John

Ooh. That's bad.

Venus

Very Visceral.

peter108 wrote:

Hi Bart
going back to one of the earlier posts on this thread by you , you wrote ."One of the things that the NLP field seems to miss out time after time is that the techniques mentioned in the book (even if they are not described correctly or incomplete as you mention) are symptom level change work techniques."

I'm interested to hear how you define 'symptom level' change work? Could you please expand on your take on this.

thanks
Peter

Hi Peter,

Good question.

Earlier in this threat there's an explicit example I gave.

I'll go deeper into it in a few days, since today it's my daughter's very first birthday...and I really shouldn't be here.

Have fun

Bart