Kate,

We may have to though because we have 30 of them in front of us so we can't install a perfect strategy for each one of them individually.

So grouping your learners by what you believe is their preferred style will allow you to introduce the task as a group and then as you move around the classroom to check on a 1-1 basis that all know how they will achieve the task you know that each group of kids are working with others who can support their learning processes. Sure you maintain your observation and skills of sensory acuity but when you know a group and have consistent exposere to them you can develop a more longer term strategy and not rely on firefighting issues, you can plan for them. You may have a table of kids who are sat their with laptops and will start clicking away, another group will start with some instruction manuals and create a flow chart onhow to complete the take before they even start and a final group will draft up the final piece of completed work that they are aiming for. Differentiation by task.

I ran a Robolab afterschool club in a Middle School where the problem you mention was real. The job of the session being ran as an after school group was that I could be more fluid in my classroom management and class behaviour problems were not an issue. Robolab (is AMAZING!) and basically is it lego kits but with electronics and motors etc that all need a computer program to control them. I set the task and a big part of the mission was in creating the solution mentally before contructing the machine. The kids wanted to do exactly what you mentined they would, but me, sat 5meters away from them, also knew in advance how they would want to work. So, does it not make sense that they are managed appropriatly so that they can excel using their strengths? Yes it is time demanding but that is the job and it is a proactive step to managing bad behaviour and self esteem issue etc. The kids enagage in their work and do not get alienated or bored.

Thanks

Matt

Everyone,

This is great stuff!

Nina, my school blocks YouTube, so I'll have to wait until I get home to watch that clip, whatever it is.

Matt, here's a proposal for you:

I wonder what might happen if you were to group students intentionally mixing up what you perceive to be their primary learning style, and see what happens. Different than your current groupings? And how much more could your students learn from each other by being guided to work with others who might or might not learn in the same way as them?

In the end, I'm wondering if it's all a wash, because, after all, think about the people you work with, Matt. I dare say that you have little choice about that group! Life has an interesting way of putting us with people who see the world in all sorts of ways, and sometimes we learn the most from those who we perceive as being the most different from us, if we can step out of our situation right now, and take a little look at what is really going on...and begin to understand that this is really all a construct, or a model, or perhaps something else, and that life as we experience it is much more fluid than just a label...

...and for me to take a step outside of myself to step into your world, Matt, requires a pretty big meta-step on my part, and i'm beginning to do that, and the more i do, the more i realize that it's all the same, just different ways that the six blind people are perceiving the elephant...

...so i'm thinking that perhaps the best advice to those who are in the trenches...is to go forth and calibrate! Who knows, you might even discover a new model for learning....

I love thinking outside of the box, don't you? Ah, to heck with the box, let's just kick it aside and throw it in the dustbin!

(my name means love) phil

Phil,

Thanks for letting me clarify myself. Differentiation by learning style is just 1 tool, I have used it for very specific activities or even as an experiment to see if i can get a perticularly challenging group on task. I am not trying to put a belief out there that I do this with all, or even most of my classes, it is just another tool. You can group students by ability, friendship, good working partners or even by their favourite football club (its amazing how much that improves their work!). Kate mantioned, "no, not ever" and others posted research to state there is no benefit to knowing and using the learning styles or your young clients. I know it is not the perfect system, but it is one IMHO that has numerous positive merits, in numerous situaitons.

Also, I am not looking to change anyone nor trip anyone up, just expressing an alternative view and learn from people who are many many more stations along the track of education related NLP that I am.

I know there is a better system to teach kids, which essentially means I know I am wrong!

Thanks Phil, Kate, Sam and Wendy, I have not had this quality of conversation on my favorite subject for a long time!

I will sit out now and enjoy other peoples contributions for a while,

Thanks

Matt

This has been an interesting discussion which I have been following avidly. When I am teaching, whatever the age of the student or the course they are following I aim to use a wide variety of teaching methods which will, by their very variety, cover all the VAK styles of learning. However, I do not believe that I need to know the students preferred learning style in order to do this. I use many aspects of NLP, teaching methods, approach, state etc in order to enhance learning but also to increase the students enjoyment of learning.

Wendy

Redsimo wrote:

I know there is a better system to teach kids, which essentially means I know I am wrong!

Matt,

There is always a better way for all of us, which is why I never do anything the same way twice! I can feel free to re-use strategies that have worked in the past, while I combine them with other new ways of doing things. I am perpetually on the quest of finding a better way to do what I do!

I don't think that necessarily means right or wrong, Matt. To use a perhaps over-used truism: no failure, only feedback!

I hope that you will continue to contribute to this incredibly stimulating discussion, Matt, as your ideas constantly challenge what I do, and cause me to change even more, hopefully discovering better ways to do what I do!

(my name means love) phil

As a trainer I have used learning styles to assist with training. Intitially I found them helpful in getting me to adapt my training to suit all of those learning styles, VAK or activists, reflectors, theorists and pragmatisits............however, one of the first thing I did when I learned about various different types of learning styles was get my learners to do learning style questionaires......thinking it would be great for them to know what their 'preferred learning style' was. What I have found by doing such questionaires is that some of my learners started to discount the possibility that they can learn in any other way than their prefferred learning style........and this is the main problem I have with learning style questionaires......

Lenny,

I couldn't agree more with you, and that goes back to what was said earlier in this discussion about pidgeonholing students. I have had students disrupting the class stating that this was natural for them as they were Kinaesthetic learners so had to get up and interact. Although they were involved in active learning, they felt that they could not concentrate unless they were moving around the room. My concern is how this will affect them when they move into the world of work. What would they do at meetings or company training? We should be teaching these students to use a variety of learning styles which will help them learn throughout their life, whatever the circumstances in which they find themselves.

Wendy

Hi Matt

[quote=Redsimo;52260


So grouping your learners by what you believe is their preferred style will allow you to introduce the task as a group and then as you move around the classroom to check on a 1-1 basis that all know how they will achieve the task you know that each group of kids are working with others

The meaning of the communication is the response you get - I am not making myself clear. waht I was saying is that people don't really have a 'preferred style' and so we cna't group them along these lines.
Differentiation is great, personalised learning is great but lets not make out that it is on the basis of learning style. It takes me a very short period of time to callibrate acurately how a person processes learning. This is done using regular NLP callibration skills. The more you know a student the more you help them to know themselves the better everyone gets at installing good learning strategies.

The probelm with the model you present is that if you group the kids according to what they doo first - click away follow a flow chart - the next thing they do (internal behaviour) will each be different and then the next and the next etc.
Asking who wants to start by having a go and who wants to start by looking at the cahrt is good differentiation but isn't about learning styles or strategies.

However.....

So, does it not make sense that they are managed appropriatly so that they can excel using their strengths? Yes it is time demanding but that is the job and it is a proactive step to managing bad behaviour and self esteem issue etc. The kids enagage in their work and do not get alienated or bored.

Yes absolutely
K
PS I wish someone would teach me how to use the quotes thing properly!
So theres a challenge for the teachers on this thread!!!

Matt
I also wanted to pick up on your earlier thread about changing the system. I agree with you. I too spent most of my time with the 'failed'
16 year olds in my early days - failed by whom!!!!
However I take heart from Richard when he says we change the world one person at a time. In our case we change the world one class, one school, one college at a time.
I have been into some fantastic primary schools and seen amazing work in FE - Secondary seems to be where the problem is. Basic error 45 minute units of learning. There are still amazing teachers out there and our job - alll of us is to support each other, encourage especially the young teachers and gather results to show others to convince them whatt we do works.

I am in the early stages of planning an NLP and learning conference where we can showcase what we can achieve and invite the gov't ministers and the likes. So collect your examples folks, document your successes and let me know of any exemplars of good practice we can invite along. One primary school wants to bring the kids not the teachers to show what they can do. This school used visualisation ( hypnosis) to prepare their kids for SATs Question asked ' Is everyone in their very special maths room with the numbers on the walls
K

Phil, I thought I'd sit out as I was getting bored of my own voice a little! I'll continue though- at your request!

Wendy,

That is a different issue, I would not say to a group "this is aimed at you 3 and this is aimed at the rest of you" in the same way that when you

"aim to use a wide variety of teaching methods which will, by their very variety, cover all the VAK styles of learning"

you simply facilitate learning utilising all the knowledge available to you. You mention that you

Simply having the info and using it to enhance their educational experience is not pidgeon holing them. The issue that both yourself and Lenny are going down is one of installing limiting beliefs or the students giving you conditions on which they will learn, sorry but totally different issue.

"I aim to use a wide variety of teaching methods which will, by their very variety, cover all the VAK styles of learning. However, I do not believe that I need to know the students preferred learning style in order to do this"

In a well thought out delivery of any curriculum you will 'teach students' and not 'teach courses'. Your scheme of work should change each year to fit the new students and then be modified as the year opens up to ensure you stay in touch with classroom progression and that the delievery is inline with those specific learners needs.

"What would they do at meetings or company training?"

Is that an important factor in the underpinning knowledge of your subject? Is post-college meeting management or how to behave in company training sessions what your students come to you to learn? What if they are not involved in meetings at work and the company trainers are on the ball and deliver appropriate means of training? If that is the case then your tough 'love model' turns into a 'tough luck' model.

I am prepared to make a bet with you that if we went through a register from a group of yours from last year that infact you could list each of their preferred learning styles. I will go further that that and throughout the academic year you modifed what you said, how you demonstrated and how you gave feedback to each student depending on what you knew.

"We should be teaching these students to use a variety of learning styles which will help them learn throughout their life, whatever the circumstances in which they find themselves."

That has never been opposed to. I'd go one step further than that and state that you must work on students weaknesses also. But in order to do that you MUST know their weaknesses, which mean you must know their strengths!

Thanks

Matt

Wendy and Lenny
You are quite right
I have had learners - 16 year olds say ' you can't teach me like that I am a visual !!!! Please halucinate the voice of a grunting 16 year old here.
One of the key points as NLPers we need to keep aware of is the difference between internal and external behaviour.
For example
YOu observe someone reading a book. External behaviour yes?
What is the internal behaviour? Are they saying the words to themselves and telling themselves a story? Are they imagining doing whatever is in the book? Are they running a movie? Its the internal behaviour which will give you theri strategy not the external.

Well its been a brilliant discussion and I am off to do some work now.
K

WOW!

And Matt, I knew you would jump back in...you really didn't want to take a break, did you?

(phil leans back with his hands clasped behind his head, and a silly grin on his face)...

Now back to the real world, where I feel slightly off my game today, so I'm going to go listen to something to pump me up for the afternoon groups!

Keep talking, everyone. You're learning! I'll jump back in when I'm home tonight (and due to the time difference between US and UK, you'll all be in bed by then--or maybe not!).

(my name means love) phil

Matt in response to what you were saying. I ahve worked with vocational students moving into early years and health care settings. Having worked in both these aeas I can assure you they will be expected to take part in meetings and to sit through some poor training courses. I have also worked with trainee teachers and my only input with regards to learning styles is to teach a session on this and to get them to analyse the usefulness. I can tell you now that I know every students learning style as they all came out as visual, as did 80% of the students in the college. This in itself tells me that there is a problem with the learning styles questionnaires.

Their ability to be able to function in the world of work is a crucial aspect of vocational courses. I agree that you need to know waht the students strengths are, however, by focussing on learning styles you can often turn that strength into a weakness which is the point I was trying to make.

My model is neither one of tough luck, nor tough love. It is one of ensuring the students have the strategies to cope in any learning situation. I am sure that that is what most teachers would do, yourself included.

I have enjoyed this discussion and it is good to open these issues up to debate.

Wendy

OK, bringing us all back to my hands-on world...

Today, third graders were studying tempo, and we listened to an excerpt from Steve Reich's Different Trains. I asked, "how can we tell how fast something is moving?" One boy who I might have labeled a "troublemaker" in the past said the whole ball of wax in one sentence: "by seeing, feeling and hearing." I nearly high-fived him! From that set-up, I was able to get the students to "tune into" their VAK while we listened to the excerpt and followed a listening map.

In addition, we learned four Italian tempo markings: adagio, andantae, allegro and presto. I had the students spell them out loud, then "put them in a picture in a special place in their brain," and connect the picture of the word in their mind to a picture of an animal to match it.

Very fun stuff!

Much more to come...

(my name means love) phil

p.s. Calling all teachers to start sharing more practical hands-on ideas, and examples of what you do!

Phil,

Brillinat stuff. Will share when I start teaching later this month. Watch this space.

Wendy

This morning's gem...

With a second grade class (seven year-olds).

Analyzing rhythm patterns, and asking them to explain internal processes for how they arrived at their answer.

My questions:

So how did you find that answer?
(no response)
What did you DO in your brain to come up with that answer?
"I saw myself clapping and saying the pattern and then when I saw and felt that the second beat had two sounds, it made me remember that they are called eighth notes."
My response: EXCELLENT!

More later. I'm looking forward to others' sharing.

(my name means love) phil

Phil
this is great
I am not teaching for the next two weeks but will add anything useful/funny etc when I get back on the road
K

Hello, world!

Once again, so far another fascinating day in the classroom...

First point:

Chunking UP and DOWN with my gifted and talented ten and eleven-year olds this morning, to help them see how music is organized at more than one level!

And another one:

Using meta model to help a student arrive at an answer to a question. In the end, she did not have the complete answer, but was able to see just how close she came to arriving at a complete answer by focusing on what she knew (which was about 80%!).

Student: I know what needs to be added, but I'm not sure how to do it...

Teacher: Ah, so you know what is needed! And if you could see how to do it, what would you do?

Student--struggling, hesitating, begins to work towards solution, each step correct, just not complete answer. when she finally gets up to about 80% of the solution, I help her arrive at the rest of the answer by utilizing process of elimination, and comparison of notational systems. Class cheers when she finishes!

More later...my day has only begun!

(my name means love) phil

Here's another good one for you...

I was instructing a group of eight year-olds that were particularly restless this morning. Normally, in a situation like this, I would have them get up and move their bodies, so that they could "shake the wiggles out." Today, however, in a moment of inspiration, I decided on a different strategy.

I stood in front of them and spanned my arms, paralell with the floor. I said, "now look at both of my palms at the same time." I repeated the direction, because I could see that a couple of students kept changing their focus from one to the other. When everyone was "doing it," I told them (as I slowly dropped my arms), "now I am dropping my arms, but you can imagine both of my palms there, to help you remain focused on learning, even when they are not there."

You could have heard a pin drop for the rest of the lesson! That is, except when I was asking for responses from students!

After that, I also immediately went into a story about listening to the repetitive motion of trains when I was a boy...(don't worry, it did have a connection to the lesson!)...

From that point on, the lesson was smooth sailing!

(my name means love) phil

Hi Phil,

Great work!

Violeta