Hi everyone,

here's an example of the type of degenerates that Liverpool produces:

YouTube - An Wot? Mr Police man

To put you in the picture, the police are there to arrest him for a number of offences and he has two large dogs in the house. listen how he effectively uses his change in voice tones to overcome the police's intent and makes them easily change their mind, through some carefully chosen words!

We have a multi-national audience here on NLP Connections and I'd like to ask you all a question. In your country, how would your police act differently in this situation?

I was bought up on a council estate and like to defend them by saying they offer large houses and gardens, green to play sport on and parks to play in. There is nothing wrong with council estates, Liverpool didn't create this guy, the people of Liverpool did.

Generation after generation of these are born, but what is the answer? How can we neuter this parasite strand?

Lock them up?
Give them love and respect?
Put them in the stocks?
Have them digging up the landfill sites for recycling?
Pay them a higher rate of benefit so they can build a life?
Give them no benefit so they become motivated to build a life?
Educate them so they can aspire to higher things?
Deny them education so they can experience fulfillment at menial jobs?

Would love to know your thoughts.

Matt

Matt wrote:

There is nothing wrong with council estates, Liverpool didn't create this guy, the people of Liverpool did.


I'm from Liverpool and I didn't create him. Liverpool is drug capital of europe, d'ya think that migh have somethin' to do with it? Most of the drugs go outside of the city.

I said 'the people' of Liverpool, not 'a person' in Liverpool.

The justice system, although we have seen what a farce that is in the video, will focus on the indivdual as if he is answerable for the problem. He is of course answerable for his behaviour but he is not answerable for the boundaries of what he sees as acceptable behaviour. His parents, peers, teachers, social worker, police, judicial system etc etc played just as significant a part in creating his map of the world as he is. The problem, IMHO, and the reason I left teaching, is that there is no collective direction or cohesion in the efforts to tackle the problems.

Liverpool is the drug capital of Europe (more than Amsterdam? or Prague?), I appreciate the chicken and egg'ness of the situation but the drugs are not shipped there and then it's a struggle to get rid of them is it? If the drugs were less available then the price would go up and the crime rate would soar. You could argue the availability of the drugs actually isolate the problem within the problem areas.

I openly admit I do not have the answers, hence the reason I posed the questions. What did you have to motivate you away from drugs and crime? How can we spread whatever that influence that was over you on to others? If you influence was unique to you, to your family or your situation then we need to find another answer.

My last teaching job was in a 6th form of a pretty affluent part of the country. It amazed me that a person can quite easily get to their mid 20's whilst on benefit and without climbing the academic ladder. There is a huge cohort of people taking pointless courses and qualifications that offer zero enhancement to their career prospects. Students openly admit to planning to get caught doing burgulary or drinking and driving just to make themselves unemployable. Having numerous convictions against you is not problem if it earns you qudos and and it actually helps you to avoid having to work.

I cannot see a way out, become more liberal makes it more appealing for them, become more right wing and you just increase the poverty levels and limit the social mobility of the next generation.

Thanks for listening to my rant, I'll put my soap box back under the stairs!

Matt

(Please don't get political on me!)

Hi Matt, you've made some very accurate assesmants there and I agree with a lot of what you say, I would think my case is unique and lots of the kids in Liverpool go a long way to sell drugs and collect the cash afterwards.

A lot of the drugs are shipped direct into Liverpool and the gangs here do deal exclusively in drugs, from the age of about 12.

I sense that there are many more bans in England now, or at least calls to ban many things and the money that could be far more productive in other areas are maily put into advertising, asking experts their opinions and aimless 'cures' for the problems.

While I wouldn't like to suggest making these drugs, mainly heroin, cocaine and extacsy avaiable by legitimate means and thus making legitimate businessmen of these people, I think that the roads they travel on lead them to actively participate in these activities.

Such a shame to hear you left teaching as it has obvious high rewards. It's amazing the direct links there are between people and drugs, especially schoolkids and the money spent in the control of drugs and kids, I wonder what chance they have in society when Liverpool is the European capital of culture this year and London will host the Olympics in 2012.

When the opium wars took place in China 1800's there were many close links to Liverpool then too and a lot of the money generated here was directly through the illegal trade of opium in China and there wasn't the numbers addicted to opium here then as there are now, or at least opium derivitaves. I think it was Prime minister Gladstone's father was an opium dealer in China and then Britain was at war with Afghanistan.

I hope that's not too political. Thanks for your input, very interesting!

Fhew! I was expecting a roasting but I am glad we share a common ground for what is going on.

I decided to leave teaching almost immediatly after completing my NLP practitioner course. After a pretty emotional and suprisingly clear timeline appeared in front of me I decided I need to be more selfish and pretty much focus on the people who were close to me and sever links with people who make it too hard to help them, I sadden myself as I write this. After spending time investing in my own personal and career development I had the feeling I was playing tug-of-war with too many people and ultimatly my own health and personal life was going to lose. Why should I help kids who don't want to be helped? Why should my own family and quality of life suffer while I spend my time enhancing others?

I did my prac course in a 2 week gap between leaving teaching and going to work for an Ofsted team as a Blended Learning Developer. I thought I was going to become part of the solution but quickly noticed that I had in fact joined a big part of the problem. I now renovate houses, 100% money orientated business, I rent some out and sell some on. I live in house with a 100m long drive and surrouned by fields and lakes, my kids will get to go to a stunning school, I have access to a NHS dentist and the local kids have scouts and army cadets to do pretty much every night. There is an abundance of unskilled jobs here on the farms which attract hard working people from all over the world and the only crime near around here is that I cannot get planning permission to extend the place to make it my long-term family home and of course the daily threat of impending Gypsies! (don't get political on me!).

For me it is about picking my battles, other people can pick their own. I plan to return to teaching but I actually want to have a chance of winning. I want to teach in a school where art and music is about passion, creativity and expression, sport is about bettering yourself physicaly and emotionally. Teaching should not be about verbal and physical assults and cockey banter. It saddens me to think that the worst punishment a school can give to a student is to expel them, crazy system, expulsion of the students who need most help. I could get wound up about it and make it my problem, or I can go and walk the dog and look at the ducks.

My timeline showed me a better life than I had ever thought possible (thanks again Debbie if you are reading this!) and a big dose of selfishness CAN bring alot of happiness.

My head is in the sand and it has been put there intentionally, it is blissfull and quiet here.

Cheers Peter,

Matt

That's a very inspirational story, Matt and it sounds like you're providing a great life for your family, a goal I share with you. What if all the teachers decided, like you to find other more rewarding vocations, answers then become paramount!

Too many teachers let, and it's the same loop the kids are in, themselves be dictated too, the difference being as you so well pointed out, the kids will be expelled when they are in great need. The teachers, they have an abundance of oppurtunities, there's plenty of sand for all

You're very welcome, Matt and thank you.

It's going to be interesting dealing with the issues raised here while at the same time following Matt's impossible request not to get political on him.

For a start, let's look at some of the language used here...

'How can we neuter this parasite strand?' contains, to put it mildly, some staggering presuppositions about people whose counterparts can be found all over the country: this is by far from being a Liverpool issue. And if I believed that people were parasites, I too would probably want to run to the security of Matt's supercomfortable house up its sweeping drive. But I don't believe that. What I do believe is that, for all the wonder of the welfare state, it has created some systemic problems in its wake. And that some of those problems are clustered in particular parts of the UK for practical socio-economic reasons...sorry, but it's impossible to discuss this stuff without reference to the 'p' word.

I spend some of my time working with homeless people with mental health problems. Some of those problems are real and enduring, others are magnified by the machinations of the welfare state. For instance, it's easy for people on benefits to get an advance on their money. This is something I wholeheartedly support, as it enables people to get large items such as cookers. But in practice the system is not vetted, and that money is just as easily spent on drugs, and gold chains bought to pawn so that the wearer can get more drugs more often: I've seen that happen. Something else I'm aware of, through drug worker friends, is 17 year olds attempting to contract HIV through deliberately poor needle practice so that they can claim Disability Living Allowance and thus have an income to score heroin with.

So, the legacy of the welfare state -- an amazing and inspirational institution -- is facing us in examples like that. But you can't simply blame the institution for the culture it creates of people taking advantage of it. In any system, there are people who take the piss, frankly. So one thing that you need to be able to do is identify those individuals more easily.

But there are many other factors involved in the situation. The media is a critical one. We're now living in a world where young people grow up bombarded by messages that tell them that fame is their birthright, and that fame itself can happen to anyone, any time, for no reason whatsoever. At which point it becomes clear that the families of those young people also have responsibility for what media their children are exposed to as they grow up, and the mix of messages they receive from family, from school, and from their peers. Oh, and by the way, modern media also has a lot of good to offer, so don't expect me to go down this route too far -- I refer you to the excellent book Everything Bad Is Good For You by Steven Johnson.

That said, the combination of people exploiting the welfare state plus culture that the media has shaped (...and reflects) has helped create a sense of entitlement in some: ie that they deserve to be supported to do whatever they wish, regardless of whether that is wise, practical, desirable, etc. Look at the proliferation of further education courses for people wanting careers in the media for instance: we're creating thousands of graduates expecting roles in tv, film, and digital media, regardless of whether those roles actually exist for them. And the same thinking applies in different sectors of the economy: unemployed carpenters are being retrained as electricians, while unemployed electricians are being retrained as carpenters, so they're doubly jobless.

And still there is hope, or I wouldn't be able to get out of bed in the morning.

Working in the hostel, for instance, one factor I've identified that's common among residents is the self-belief that, contra to NLP's presuppositions, they don't have the resources needed to change. And why should they believe otherwise? Ending up in a hostel for people without homes, and with mental health and maybe substance problems, is pretty much as low as it gets other than rough sleeping, and a good few of the residents will have done that too.

The starting point then -- and this cuts across the different groups I've skipped through in the course of this rambling response -- is to instill hope in people. Give people a sense that they're capable of achieving some kind of future independently, and they can do that and more. And once that sense of hope is flickering in them, support it with giving them the skills they need to function effectively.

I noticed, for instance, that one guy at the hostel paid no attention to his hygiene and clothing when asked to do so...but when his mother made contact for the first time in some years, he immediately and spontaneously started to shower, shave, and get some clothes sorted out. Somewhere in his head was a complex equivalence, if we want to look at it in NLP terms, equating behaviours to do with his appearance with contact with a family he'd been excluded from for a long time. Or, put it another way, he started to get his self respect back.

With someone else, leaving the hostel alone was a real issue. But we did a few sessions drawing on an approach Michael Breen and Pete Cohen devised for sports coaching, building up his sense of belief in himself, and he was able to leave the hostel and travel solo on public transport to see his family. Small steps, but crucial ones.

Michael Breen refers to the west as a hungry ghost culture, using the Buddhist analogy of beings that have an infinite appetite, but mouths only the size of pinpricks. And that's what we're up against, in the society we're operating in. Is it any good pumping people up to go and get material success when really that's part of the problem in the first place? A lot of NLP trainers don't take that bigger view, and some of you will probably be upset with me for articulating it in this way. And I can see that, to an extent: wealth creation offers the chance to give money to charity and to pay taxes that will make a difference. Maybe...but as much difference as confronting these issues directly, and doing something about them with at least some of the time we've got available?

Giving up is not an option. And if NLP really is about systemic changework, and not just buffing up egos (they might not be directly visible, but I'm sure I'm not the only person who can recognise their presence) to achieve material success of questionable value to the world at large, then people here with the skills we've got can play a personal role in making a difference, at whatever scale we choose to operate at, in the social worlds we inhabit.

Adrian,

Great post, you have a great passion for what you do and I wish you all the best with whatever pathway you decide to take. I don't want to dispute anything you write, this time last year I would have stood shoulder to shoulder with you, please take my comments below with the understanding that I openly admit to being on a more selfish journey than I ever have been before. Even though I am not currenty fighting the good fight I am fully aware that someone somewhere is unhappy and having a bad time- I get that.

You write

"And that's what we're up against, in the society we're operating in"

We don't have a society that is consistent across the country, people comment about the housing market, immigration or unemployment in this country as if we all live in the same eco-system. There is a pandemic of these problem areas across the country, that doesnt make it any easier to control. (The work Pandemic, like my comment of 'parasites' is full of presuppositions, that is why I decided to use them) I worked night shifts for 4 years to go through university, what is the point in working damn hard for social mobility if the 'lucky' minority that have it don't use it?

"And still there is hope, or I wouldn't be able to get out of bed in the morning".

Great line, but I must ask, what are you hoping for? Are you prepared to spend the best parts of your life looking for a few wins to cancel out the losses? For me I got to the stage where I was teaching in a school where we ran out of printer ink, sellotape and dry-wipe pens, no more was available until the following September, sand was next on list of budget cuts. I caught the news that same week and listened to Ruth Kelly claiming schools are better funded that ever and David Cameron wants pupils to stand up when a teacher walks in to a classroom as an aim to install discipline, it was the point where I thought there is no hope.

"And if NLP really is about systemic changework, and not just buffing up egos (they might not be directly visible, but I'm sure I'm not the only person who can recognise their presence) to achieve material success of questionable value to the world at large" There is no agenda behind NLP, it is not a package for people to learn and then head off on a blinkered quest to impose their morals or standards on other people.

Is the "buffing up ego" comment making reference to me? Have you read my profile? If you have any examples of ego buffing that relate to me, please bring them forward.

"at whatever scale we choose to operate at, in the social worlds we choose to inhabit."

I am not sure I deserve some of the comments simply because I made different choices to you, I know you mean well and like a good debate so I take no offence. Lets be honest, you do not do what you do as a selfless act, you are getting some rewards somewhere, maybe I used to get the same reward as you or at least an equivalent that motivated me to join the unwinnable fight. You will either continue with it until the day you die or you will find another behaviour that gets you greater satisfaction (it will be 'greater' or you will continue to serve the people you do). Me, I have found a new direction that offers me greater calling in life, that is to provide for and protect the ones close to me.

WE live in world with choices, what is the point in working hard to have a life where you have choices if I cannot realise the options it gives me.

Lets move on from the fact we make different choices and what our motivating factors are, what are the solutions?

Matt --

No, the ego buffing comment was not at all pointed in your direction. Just a general comment, and one more aimed at some NLP trainings and trainers than those trained.

Pandemics and parasites, to me, indicate buying into a Daily Mail mindset that I just don't buy into. Things are as bad as they ever were in many respects...and as good too. Which doesn't mean that some areas don't get the shitty end of the stick: locally there are former mining communities that bore the brunt of devastation and still haven't recovered.

Individual schools might be in a mess, but what do you do about that? Accept that reality or, as some headteachers are doing, taking staff and pupils with them, wading in and tackling it? Jamie Oliver has made moves forward to what happens in schools at a food level: what could committed parents do if they were motivated enough? As it happens, the most effective teaching I've seen is in a pitifully under-resourced sector: Steiner schools.

You shifting your own priorities was clearly important, but seems to be an asbolutist stance to take. I've opted for a mid ground where I am 'selfishly' concerned with my writing career much of the time, but also choose to experience the world of the hostel. And even that's not as simple as 'wanting to make a difference': it's partly about getting away from cabin fever, an occupational hazard for writers.

This isn't, as far as I can see, about individual selfishness/selflessness. It's bigger than that. The underlying issues is: what sort of world do we want to live in, and what are we personally prepared to do to bring it into existence?

It's funny what is written above about David Cameron wanting pupils to stand up in class when a teacher walks into the classroom, here's what happened to him when he walked through a council estate in Manchester, probably only aired on regional news.

YouTube - Manchester Hoodies/Scallies/Chavs/Thugs/Scrotes Gang