The reframing of potentially negatives may make the report sound more charming but it may, like James mentioned, invite the reader to miss the point of the report

I can only remember one of my reports from school, which was from RE. My teacher wrote that "Jasmin makes a valuable contribution to discussion but only when she is there".

I remember it for the panic that I had, that my parents would realise that I had been bunking. But as it happens, they either didnt pick it up, or did but decided not to mention it to me.

I was caught eventually though...cheerily heading off out the school gates and the headmistress phoned my Dad.

My take...


"could do better"... hasn't been 100% engaged by the curriculum

"if he applied himself then...." ... easily grasps ideas when interested in in the subject

"could get an A but will get a ...." understands the work but finds other subjects more interesting/stimulating

"is easily distracted" enjoys active participation and fresh stimulation

"daydreams too much" hasn't been captured by this subject

Hi Mog, thanks for your ideas.

I am not looking to add 'estate agent' style ways of describing problems but looking to create more useful was of addressing the problems which will hopefully result in a solution being found. Jasmine story tells of how important reports can make yet somehow the lack of clarity or whatever reason it failed to engage an appropraite response from her parents.

We are piloting a biometric registration system next year where individual attendance results will be available online to parents and guardians, look out all you who play truant!

Thanks

Matt

Motivational "KICK," and "ONLY" form of communication?, A solution in writing????

I don't know about you guys, but I vividly remember getting slapped in the face by mother superior when I was in elementary for being quick sharp eye gaze or Oh and so she says. Someone told my moma before I got to plan to burn the school yard down.

Don't you guys be evil in your writing, the point is ...set samples, be good. That's all

DISCLAIMER.
This is my favorite rant. I can take you anywhere you want to go and get a happy Joyride with these. God bless Mother Superior!

cmarkod wrote:

Having your head put down the toilet and it being flushed. In my part of the world, this has been a long standing myth with regard to abuse as a first year in secondary school.

Good job you didn't come to my school, you'd have been first seriously though it was one of the favoured forms of induction metered out by some, can I just say sorry now for those who cried, it was just a bit 'o' fun

Could have done better on my report was no surprise, I already knew that, mucking about in class was much more fun, strange how my parents didn't agree. Easily led was the one that made me giggle, they didn't understand that letting someone else take the flak was a planned move

cmarkod wrote:

Having your head put down the toilet and it being flushed.

If you can keep your head when those about you are flushing theirs and drive you round the bend....

go well

Venus, yikes, that is terrible. The reality is that he was insulting himself. Since he was the teacher, he must not have thought much of his ability to teach if he knew the outcome would be bad!

Dasein

venus_brown wrote:

Once, when I was in high school, I was out on a double-date with my boyfriend, a girlfriend and the guy she was dating at the time.

Out of the blue, one of my previous teachers came up to us at a table at a restaurant and said, "I knew you girls would never amount to anything!" And then just walked off.

We were 15 or 16 years old at the time. Can you imagine!!!

Well, here I am, doing quite well, thank you. And my girlfriend? She committed suicide about 5 years ago.


I guess she felt like she never amounted to anything.


Don't ever try to tell me that folks don't pick up the messages -- conscious or otherwise -- that are delivered to them by folks in authority.

I'd like to think that teacher is dead, too. If I knew where her grave was, I'd go spit on it.

Venus

Matt, as a teacher and someone who supervises other instructors, I thought I might be able to add something to this discussion.

Instructors tend to develop a repertoire of phrases that fit their needs. For instance, the one you focus on "you could do better" serves certain common needs for instructors and is therefore quite popular. First, it is positive even though it is offering some indication of mistakes or flaws in work. Second, it is innocuous and non-confrontational. Third, it is vague in a practical way. It allows instructors to indicate that there were imperfections in the work and there is justification for deductions. The vagueness allows instructors to fill in the type of error later if someone actually asks what they were. This allows instructors to provide details later without concern about contradicting themselves later.

Most common feedback phrases tend to meet the above criteria. It reflects the need for teachers to be positive, to be positive and set higher standards by indicating that something is imperfect, and of course time constraints.

Unfortunately, due to the volume of students that most of us encounter, we frequently have to rely on cut and paste tactics. I think this is acceptable practice if it remains effective. It is possible to do that. It helps to have a plan to do that. For instance, I start my feedback pattern with a template. It has to be of the sandwich variety. I start off with something positive and end with something positive. In the middle, I offer specific feedback on mistakes and errors. Sometimes phrases like "You could do better" can help bridge the gap between the positive and negative stages. Here would be an example of something that fits the pattern:

"Your assignment indicates that you learned a lot of the course material, but you could do even better with more attention to the textbook. Some of your answers do not show a good understanding of the theories or concepts. You confused X and Y. However, your assignment was definitely thoughtful and you made some good points."

I use a similar strategy when providing the teachers that I supervise with feedback. In general, you have to provide something specific to indicate how they can get better. You are right that the phrase "you could do better" is not very helpful on its own, but that is because it has to be supported by a complete feedback strategy. It could be a part of that strategy, but it should not be a substitute for that. In other words, you have to know why you are saying what you saying or pasting what you are pasting - and understand how that fits with your plan for providing quality feedback.

In your case, you are providing feedback to parents about their kids. You can design your own template that reflects the nuances of your specialized area. You could use something like this: "Joe definitely learned a lot this quarter. However, he could do even better by completing assignments on time. He also shows weaknesses in math and science. If he can put more attention on that, he can achieve even more. In any case, Joe did some good work last quarter."

In general, I think the use of some of the popular phrases and even cutting and pasting can be part of an effective strategy for providing good feedback to students - or to parents. You do need to have a good strategy to help you do that though.

I hope that helps.

Dasein

Redsimo wrote:

".. could do better ....."

This is probably the most used phrase in our school reports throughout history. Apart from implying to the parents that you are underachieving and your lack of effort is to blame, surely something more positive can be written which addresses the same problem yet actually moves towards a solution.

My reports were full of

"could do better"
"if he applied himself then...."
"could get an A but will get a ...."
"is easily distracted"
"daydreams too much"

and while they are all true none of them helped move me on. I still could do better, which of us could not do any better? If something else is more appealing then I am still distarcted, which of us is not? I wish I could day dream with the levels of competence I used to be able to, day dreaming rocks!

What would you like to have been told all those years ago? What actually would make a difference to the problems we faced as learners at school?

I have the job of writing childrens school reports next term and while I have been dong this for numerous years now there is certainly room for improvement. Mr Sims could do better!

More that ever I am aware of the negatives associated with asking children to "try", or filling their small boxes on their report card with lists of what they will not achieve, or implying they "choose" to be easily distracted. Or that they know how to behave in all situations and that all their failings are due to them not applying themselves or not making enough effort. I know there are skilled speach writers, sales experts and motivational speakers among you, or maybe you can still remember what was written in your school report as clear as if it was written yesterday. What do you wish you had imprinted in your mind from childhood rather than just "you could do better"?

School reports are often the only communication between teachers and parents so help me to to turn this event from the annual bollocking to become the annual motivational kick!

Thanks in advance,

Matt

Dasein
i also am a teacher and am aware of cut and paste techniques for reports. I never used them myself because i always wanted to connect in my mind with the individual child a then let it flow from there. However i am not really against the cut and paste technique, i just did not like it. I realise that it is more todo with work load and time constraints than anything else.
What i do dislike is the; 'you could do better' style which often is quite subjective and relies on what the teacher or examiner considers better. And experience shows that examiners see things differently.
Also as a teacher being observed i would see the; positive/negative/positive sandwich coming and inwardly groan very loud.
As a mentor for other trainee students teachers i did a lot of simply asking trainees to assess themselves with directionalised questioning. 'Did you acheive the objective?' 'How could you have got more of them to acheive it'? Did your state management work when little Johny threw the table at little khadija?''What would you have needed more of?'etc etc. I would also use a lot of first second and third positioning so that the student could see from an observers position and also see it from the childs position.
This helps it to be more about factual 'HOW and WHATS' rather than comparative evaluations
The use of positions takes the sting out of taking it personally. Also the insight gained is gained from within and from without.
I realise that this approach is difficult when writing reports but it can be applied and is very useful when working with trainee adults who are often stressed beyond the extreme in school situations.
Finally i am not sure if 'you could do better' is so innocuous and non-confrontational. By repetition repetition and repetition throughout life it becomes a mantra that you do not do it correctly. How often do we say or receive something like ' yeah you did just great' I would think the ratio of 'could have done betters' far outstrips the 'did great;(even with all those mistakes).
Is it any wonder we have so much custom for our work which is basically about improvement ......the post hypnotic suggestion is all around us....could do better....could do better...could do better....could do better.....and it is not so surprising the levels of neurosis that are created by the education system......Yes we all could do better but more importantly we are okay as we are imperfect beings

Anekant, I understand what you are saying. I think that we are pretty much in agreement for the most part.

You are right that "you can do better" can be very subjective. That is why I would only use it along with specifics like "if you turn in assignments on time" or "work on spelling and grammar." I think we are in agreement here because I would never use that phrasing on its own. It should never be considered feedback on its own. In addition, we both agree that negative feedback needs to be limited. That is why many instructors use the sandwich method, starting and ending by giving positive reinforcement or feedback.

As for negative post hypnotic suggestions, that could happen if the person takes "better" to mean something negging like "inadequate" or something like that. We should attend to that if it turns out that people tend to interpret it in that fashion. In that case, we would be effectively saying "you can be less of a failure." That does not sound like something we would want to say to someone. However, I suspect that you can't get there from just repeating the original phrase over and over again. It would have to be supported by other experience, history or behavior to get someone to interpret in that fashion. The phrase could then become anchored to that type of negative experience.

Dasein

anekant wrote:

Dasein
i also am a teacher and am aware of cut and paste techniques for reports. I never used them myself because i always wanted to connect in my mind with the individual child a then let it flow from there. However i am not really against the cut and paste technique, i just did not like it. I realise that it is more todo with work load and time constraints than anything else.
What i do dislike is the; 'you could do better' style which often is quite subjective and relies on what the teacher or examiner considers better. And experience shows that examiners see things differently.
Also as a teacher being observed i would see the; positive/negative/positive sandwich coming and inwardly groan very loud.
As a mentor for other trainee students teachers i did a lot of simply asking trainees to assess themselves with directionalised questioning. 'Did you acheive the objective?' 'How could you have got more of them to acheive it'? Did your state management work when little Johny threw the table at little khadija?''What would you have needed more of?'etc etc. I would also use a lot of first second and third positioning so that the student could see from an observers position and also see it from the childs position.
This helps it to be more about factual 'HOW and WHATS' rather than comparative evaluations
The use of positions takes the sting out of taking it personally. Also the insight gained is gained from within and from without.
I realise that this approach is difficult when writing reports but it can be applied and is very useful when working with trainee adults who are often stressed beyond the extreme in school situations.
Finally i am not sure if 'you could do better' is so innocuous and non-confrontational. By repetition repetition and repetition throughout life it becomes a mantra that you do not do it correctly. How often do we say or receive something like ' yeah you did just great' I would think the ratio of 'could have done betters' far outstrips the 'did great;(even with all those mistakes).
Is it any wonder we have so much custom for our work which is basically about improvement ......the post hypnotic suggestion is all around us....could do better....could do better...could do better....could do better.....and it is not so surprising the levels of neurosis that are created by the education system......Yes we all could do better but more importantly we are okay as we are imperfect beings

Setting a goal beyond your current level of abilty it not a factor to bring on neurosis! If teachers did not look at the potential of a 6 year old child and then aim to make them well rounded adults armed with qualifications for when they reach 16 then we would be failing thousands of kids every year. Teachers look after the childs educational wellbeing, physical, sexual, mental and spritual health along with being disciplinarian, care giver, fun giver and in many cases being mum, dad and older brother to many kids. All that on 9 months of training! If you think things in schools are not as good as they can be (which they are not- sorry if that makes you neurotic, for me it stimulates determination and motivation not neurosis) then lets have some answers put forward and not more negativity

I am quite surprised that the 'praise burger' strategy is still being used and even more surprised that you can refer to any feedback as being 'negative'. However, thanks for sharing your ideas about how and when it had worked well for you, to be honest, I will take any advice from anyone if it means my childrens school life improves.

I have completed the reports that I wanted the help with and whilst taking on board much of the help offered here I created some unofficial rules to follow.

If I offered some feedback that did imply the student was underperforming then by placing the criticism between an example of when the student demonstrated they did have a higher level of skill and what help I or the school would offer in order to help them once again achieve the level of competence.

For example,

So far this term Mike has produced coursework that could gain him the A Grade he potentially is capable of. His database project showed Mike has an understanding of both planning his workload, grasping some complex IT concepts and is capable or working independently. If he continues to show this maturity and determination he will comfortably achieve the A grade. However, it is looking likely that his academic progress will suffer as recently he has used time allocated for project work to socialise with his friends and work to the level of a student well below his ability. An example of this is his graphics project. In 6 hours worth of classroom lessons Mike produced about 20 minutes worth of work, he spent 2 hours of this time in TimeOut for making inappropriate comments to his classmates and has failed to attend any of the catch up sessions that are put on every Tuesday evening. In too many lessons Mike is too concerned with socialising and fooling around with his classmates and for this reason his official predicted and most likely grade is a D. For Mike to become the A grade student we know he can be then he needs to restore the focus and level of effort shown during his database project and take advantage of the afterschool clubs on offer. Mike could easily go onto a well paid job in IT or study for his A levels, however if he decides not to focus in lessons then he will give the impression to potential employers that he struggles when using computers.

Would love to hear your thoughts and feedback, burgar-ralised or otherwise!

Thanks

Matt

Matt,

Yes, the burger or sandwich is still being used! The reason is that it is a helpful reminder to give attention to the student's entire production - not just his or her mistakes. I think Richard Bandler caricatured this in one of his early audio lectures. Here comes the teacher with red ink pointing out all the things I am doing wrong. Education should be fun and enjoyable - not just about a constant listing of my failings.

By negative feedback, I just mean the type of feedback that points out someone's mistakes or errors. This type of feedback is not in itself negative as you are right in intimating. It can become that if all we do is point out people's failings and mistakes. That is why I continue to use the burger because it reminds me to always put it together with an entire picture of what the student is doing.

It is good that as a parent you are happy to receive any kind of feedback that will help your child excel! However, it is my understanding - based on studies that I have heard of - that students will do better if they are simply told that they are smarter. They will also do worse if told they are they are told they are bad students. In addition, simply reminding a girl of her gender will cause her performance to suffer according to another study. With these types of concerns in mind, it does seem important to consider if something is framed in a way that will have a detrimental effect.

I think this debate has gotten a bit murky because we are discussing feedback to students, feedback to parents, feedback to instructors from a supervisor. As a parent or adult, you can probably handle certain types of feedback better without negative emotional connotations. This may or may not be true with feedback directly with the students.

Dasein

I am spending this afternoon with 40 teachers exploring One-to-One Behaviour Change.

There is a likelihood that some of the delegates will feel that I am saying, albeit indirectly, "You could [should?] do better!"

That is a familiar response because I seldom let anyone talk about anyone who is not in the room; better, in the sense of having more potential for increased EI, for those in the room [teachers] to reflect on, explore and learn from their own actions and reactions to the people in their charge [students].

I will refer to / utilise: Logical Levels, Fundamental Filters (Metaprograms), Lingusitic Icebergs (Metamodel), State Control, Cross Cultural Communication, Clean Language and three GREAT questions for action learning (especially useful when someone - self or other - could have done better or, indeed, could not have done worse!

My focus will be on the teachers' thoughts, feelings and actions when they are faced with the familiar attitudes and the difficult behaviour of the teens they attempt to teach!

I am looking forward to it.

Go well

Jumped the gun before thinking, or got foot still stuck in the mouth again.

What an interesting thread, particularly as I am in the middle of writing end of year reports for my secondary school pupils just now. I will read the whole thread thoroughly but I have one or two thoughts already. I posted sometime ago about problems I had with the behaviour of a specific class that was almost impossible to teach. In spite of all the good advice I was given I had no success with that class and just got through the year as best I could. I have now written their reports and we are not allowed to say things like could do better! I just stopped myself saying that one boy would not achieve the grade he was capable of because he was bone idle. I didn't think the school would accept that because we are encouraged to put a positive spin on everything! My other classes are great so I will certainly use some of the ideas from you guys for them.

I am lucky this year that I don't have many classes so I am able to write an individual report for each student but in the past I have had so many students that using cut and paste was the only way to get the reports done in the limited time given.

I sympathise with the person whose teacher didn't know who he was. Before I became a teacher my son came home one time with a very mediocre report for IT, a subject he loved and was very good at. When I asked my son about it he said "Mum, the teacher doesn't know who I am" I was a bit shocked at the time but once I became a teacher I wrote lots of reports for kids whose face I just couldn't put to the name! I am happy to say that this time I know all my pupils and how they are progressing very well!

sobrina wrote:

I just stopped myself saying that one boy would not achieve the grade he was capable of because he was bone idle. I didn't think the school would accept that because we are encouraged to put a positive spin on everything! My other classes are great so I will certainly use some of the ideas from you guys for them.

Reports for me are not about writing things with a positive spin but providing useful feedback to the student.

I it is failing to do that for whatever reason then everybody's time and effort is wasted.

John

The world is a wonderful place but nobody gets out alive

Hello ...for any teachers i would like to recommend some very helpful work by Michael Grinder....his books contain great information but are a little difficult to read...however the dvd's are excellent especially the 21 pentimento patterns....There is a lot of interesting stuff on behaviour management and particularly the use of 'command tone down' . I recommend this stuff for all teachers and the effects of its use were very visible when watching how different teachers lead whole school assemblies.
anekant

mikmal wrote:

I am spending this afternoon with 40 teachers exploring One-to-One Behaviour Change.
Go well

Well, that was a few weeks ago and the afternoon went very well!

Having been introduced, I stood quietly for few moments, looking at each person in turn, then stated what I stood for, "I'm Michael Mallows, and I stand here as the possibility of....!"

I completed and repeated the declaration, then, opening my arms in a gesture that included the whole group, said, "And I wonder what YOU stand for?"

The silence could have been shredded with a cheese grater! As I looked around, people would catch my gaze and their eyes would slide off my face like an egg off a hot plate!

I declared the simple truth, "I do not know what your silence means!" and waited a few more moments*.

Then I pointed to an older looking teacher and asked her directly, "What is preventing you from standing up or at least speaking up?"

Almost inaudibly, and certainly reluctanty, she replied, "Shyness!"

I asked her to repeat it, then asked her what was she was afraid of.
"Well, I'm not afraid as such, more embarrassed really."

"Assume for the moment, that embarrassment, shyness are both forms of fear," said I, "What might the answer be?

"Every one looking at me!"

"Well, that's what's happening now, isn't it?"

She joined in the general laughter.

"So that reason no longer exists, does it?" I said.

"I suppose not," she replied. Her voice was strong, her smile seemed genuine.

"So, given that your reason doesn't exist, what do you stand for?"

She stood and said, with dignity, conviction and congruence, "I stand for bringing out the best in every student I meet, and helping them to realise as much of their potential as possible!"

I looked around the room and asked, "Who else?"

More than half stood up!

The first woman approached me at the end of the session. She'd been inspired by her own experience and realised that she often treated people the way she'd wanted me to treat her, as if she was fragile and incapable in a situation where silence and invisibility seemed preferable.

She'd felt angry at my 'picking on' her and 'trapped' until she actually stood up. The act of standing had filled her with great confidence in herself and a profound reconnection with the deep purpose of her mission as a teacher.

The Deputy Head commented that she'd learnt more about some of her colleagues in the ten minutes of the exercise than in the ten years of working with them!

* I am passionate about giving people Time to Think by the highly inspiring Nancy Kline. A few heart beats, a couple of breaths, a few seconds reflection helps people function more intelligently. Even better if people e.g. every individual of every age and ability in a classroom - or boardroom or training room - know that they will have and be encouraged to take, and to give others, time to think)
.
Go well

Exercise Equipment!

I always knew someone whose belavoures exercisings and to de-stress, and didn't make any allowance to have the right exercise equipments. A genuine humanly self smack!

May I also suggest to properly acquire exercise-equipments like jogging combat shoes for instance, and to use them at most times to be at your best and so to for all the rest of the people in the world to relax and be happy.

PEACE be with you all.