I'm with Eric. If the guy's for real, he's a sociopath, and we're wasting our breath. If he's yanking our chain, ditto. I confess to feeling traumatized by those descriptions of other human beings treated as objects, which drew me into the drama more than I would have liked. But as there's nothing I can do about any of it no matter which of the above (or any other possibility I can imagine) is true, I'm just over it, and outta here.

{ Removed by poster. }

Jadic,
I'm sorry that you have missed the point that there are great people here trying to help you be a better person. You should probably talk to someone.

-Tony

Jadic wrote:

Mr. DeBusk I am not a sociopath.

Note carefully that I didn't say you were. I only pointed out that, by your own report, you meet three or more of the generally-recognized diagnostic criteria. It would take exhaustive professional testing to diagnose you with such a personality disorder, and you'll never undergo it. So you can't say you aren't with any more conviction than anyone here can say you are. Nobody -- including you -- knows.

I think nobody, least of all I, expected you to come back and say, "Oh, darn... OK, you got me, I'm a sociopath..." Such a response would make no sense at all, whether you are or are not one. But I won't tell you why.

Incidentally, I sincerely hope you are not one. For all the disgust and revulsion they inspire in people once they're discovered, they're actually pitiable creatures, moreso (IMO) than any other. They don't know what it is they're afraid of, you see, even though they think they do, so they always face it in complete ignorance and with utter surprise, totally unprepared. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. So I genuinely hope you're correct in your assertion.

Anyway... good luck to you.

great job man!keep it on

I am coming in quite late to this discussion, and prefer to keep it short. I will!

I have a saying that I have used more than once in my life, and I find it quite often applicable.

"If you make a habit of leading others to places that are not useful to them, eventually you will be labeled a jerk."

I don't know anyone who really enjoys being labeled a jerk, at the end of the day.

Be well, and at peace,

Phil

Hi Jadic

I think many have already mentioned that one day we realise what is important for each of us in life. It's at this point that we go about starting a new journey along this path.

I believe that we are all here to learn from each other and to teach others the lessons they need to learn in life. Wether you want to or don't want to take part in the process, you will. If you think of it like the presuposition of NLP "you cannot not communicate" the life equivalent would be "you cannot not teach others."

Many of the people who have read your posts will have gained from your writtings in one way or another. This would have also flowed onto person A, person B and Mr Empty.

Each person will have gained something different from your story. IMO this will be dependent on their particular level of development and their particular state of mind at that point of time.

As you in someway, will also have learnt from this experience. So Thank You for giving me an opportunity to learn something new, actually many new things about a wide variety of topics.

On a lighter note, have you ever considered taking your experiences into the realm of creative writing for adult magazines?

Have a great day

Frederic

im a little surprised that everyones response was just to label jadic as a sociopath, tho i too didnt realy think anything good about what he said, till i read matts response.
the story jadic presented, really isnt in any help if he only wants tips on how to get in to a 3some... the reason im posting is because i was understanding and seeing jadics story so different, the surface structure meaning was something totally different than the actual deep structure meaning after a few hints from matt...

while writing this, it made me think about some stuff, so im just gonna write this down too, because i actualy learned something about myself...

"I gain a pleasure out of being able to manipulate situations and people. It is that simple."

when i first read this part, i just flew over it, because the feeling was familiar and i totaly understood and imagened how you could gain pleasure out of manipulating people, but this was only with a small part of my conscious mind, as if my uncociouss mind was blocking further thinking down that road... when i was writing the first part i rememberd the following story, which made me understand why i could sense that i somehow understand this feeling of pleasure from manipulating others...

this was some years ago when my friend got his internet connection, the only thing we found to do at that time was fool around in chat rooms on IRC
so i was talking with a girl, the usual how are you where you from and all that. when i got bored i started to say insulting things to see if i can get a funny reaction from her. she got mad but she didnt just close the window and ignored me, she kept talking to me, so i turned it around and was saying the very opposite as before, she calmed down and tought i was ok.. then i started to say insulting things again, and again she kept talking to me but was very upset. i again fliped everything over again, i was insulting here but at the same time telling here that it doesnt matter what people say. shortly she was totaly confused and i found it very amusing how i could say such crap to her and still keep her talking to me. i made her cry and i comforted her. this went on for about 2 hours and i went home after that, but i told here in which chatroom i hung out usualy. in the next days she kept comming to the chatroom every day and met all of my friends who were in there and wanted to know everything about me. i talked to her again in a couple of days, and she said that shes in love with me but she doesnt know why, and she cant understand it because she doesnt even know how i look. i dont remember exactly what happened after this, and it was just last year or so when i again talked to her, both not knowing that we talked before. when we found out i felt bad, and i appolgized to her, i told her i that i know now what a little jerk i could be as a kid, but she said that its alright and that shes actualy thankfull, because it supposedly changed her life. we now talk quite often and respect eachoter and have met several times in real life. altho shes become a very happy person, satisfied with herself(she was overweight, and my insults were all aiming at that), more than any other person i know. i dont know what to feel about this, how one can change your life, when the other is just looking for a chat, it sure is moraly incorrect if it happens with such intentions that i had, im questioning myself if its also incorrect even with good intentions. i guess this puts me back to what jadic said, isnt nlp and hypnosis manipulation? what is ok to change in a person, wheres the line? do you leave peoples model of the world alone till they cant cope anymore and seek for help? im sure theres been writen and said a lot about ethics, im new to this so these things are still arangeing in my mind so il just stop writing, because its opening to much qestions for now...

seeing what i wrote i guess im doing the same thing as jadic, im writing this for reasons i know of and you know of, and reasons you dont know and i dont know of...

nlpers avoid the word manipulation, and if you think about it, what manipulation is, its firstly understanding someone, you cant manipulate someone if you cant understand him. if you understand, the job is done, manipulating from there is just joking around with the understanding. And there are so many things you can do in life in which you can get this satisfaction of understanding people, and an even bigger satisfaction to use your understanding to help others.

Hi,

NLPers do not avoid the word manipulation, maybe a little like yourself, when starting out it can be difficult to see how understanding manipulation can be a positive thing. Using Jadic as a case study, well, in his conversations with his 2 girls and the character called 'Empty' he would have used the same tools (words and expressions) that are available to you and I. His inability to use these tools properly left him in a situation where he is full of anger and fuelled by a passion for revenge. In his story he takes credit for giving his ex panic attacks, well, I am prepared to bet that if he tried to give a person panic attacks he would not have a clue how to do it, the fact that he achieved this by randomly created insults shows just how dangerous uneducated people can be when using words. Jadics sees himself as a macho player, but his ability is on a par with a blindfolded 5 year old throwing a dart at a dartboard and hitting a bullseye. On evidence I could claim he is the best darts player in the world but like jadic, the 5 year old cannot claim any knowing part to the skill he demonstrated. We gather knowledge and share what we believe we understand in such a random way using skills we have often poorly learnt through chance experiences. Knowing how to use words and expressions, knowing how to structure an argument is not manipulation. In my experience of NLP, when asked to help someone who expresses a problem, more often than not they have been manipulated into thinking that ALL spiders are bad, they are thick, they cannot spell or like in Jadics case, anger is the best emotion to use right now. He has had his confidence shattered, well, we need to open him up to new ways of thinking and give them options where, from his current knowledge, he cannot see that he has any apart from starting another loop of the same shortshighted behaviour that has let him down in the past. In this sitiuation, manipulation of his thinking and the belief in his ability will serve him well.

Your last paragraph is interesting to me. I am of the belief that you can never understand someone. You can agree on specific statements but for me to understand you, I would need to have had your upbringing and ALL of your life experiences as withnessed through your eyes and with the ability and values you had at that time. That is never going to happen. Clever discussions can be constructed 'content free', for example, if I was trying to sell you the idea of 'dating' me, rather than say something like,

"You know when you meet someone and you know you share the same excitement and passion"?

well, the words excitement and passion may well make the other person back off as these are brilliant dating requirements for some people but real turnoff for others. You could keep it content free and say something like,

"you know when you meet someone and it feels just right, well, that is what I am feeling is happening here".

You do not need to know someones situation in order to give them good advice. It is a skill of a clever hypnotist to take someone on a journey without giving them and specifc guidance but simply giving them a stimulus to work with and then the client adds their own content. It is interesting to me that you made sense of Jadics comments, and then made sense of my comments about jadics comments by relating them to your own experiences. Well, even if you, Jadic and I all shared the exact same experience, the chances are that it would have meant totally different things happen to us as a result. What can be one persons motivation is another persons reason to get despondant, what brings out the good in one person brings out the bad in another. You cannot control what happens to you but you can control how what happens to you affects you. You can manipulte any scenario to provide you with whatever you want it to. Just look at the variety in responses to Jadics post. For some people here is bought out anger for others it bought about an opportunity for them to learn something about their own life, for others it was a chance to highlight a concern they have about relationships. For Jadic, feeling the was he does is not THE answer, it is just 1 option from a list of responses. Manupulation is knowing that all these options are yours to choose from.

It is worth pointing out (again) that not everyone called Jadic a sociopath. There are millions of teenagers around the world right now who are wannabe tough guys and gangsters. He is claiming responsibility and credit for outcomes that he does not have the skills to create and despite some immature talk that he perceives as tough talk, he is just another jilted single bloke who is full of hate after being played by a girl. Giving his the tag as a sociopath is giving him a status that he would love to have, however, in my opinion he has not earnt it.

There are some great discussions about manipulation in the archives of this forum, enjoy yourself and take a look. It is certainly not my experience to say NLPers avoid or feel undermined by the topic.

I hate this whole issue of "tricking" or "manipulating" women into sex thing. Arguing about whether or not "hypnosis says there is no reality so we can do whatever we want to fuck with people's minds" is pretty retarded, and it's not even worth a debate in the first place since it presupposes that women don't like sex in the first place and need to be "seduced". And this is coming from a guy who used to think the same way.

Edit: Oops, sorry. I meant to reply to the manipulating women's hearts thread. If someone can merge it, I would appreciate it.

Arguing about whether or not "hypnosis says there is no reality so we can do whatever we want to fuck with people's minds" is pretty retarded

Who is having that argument?

and it's not even worth a debate in the first place

They/we are not, well not on this thread anyway!

Thanks

Matt

Jadic wrote:

The whole concept of hypnosis is manipulation is it not? Is the current state of those practitioning it really so naive as to believe there is a right and wrong?

^^^ I was referring to this.

haha fun things fun things, here is what I am going to ask you.


During all of these commotion, did you have fun? Did you do it with a smile on your face? Did you tell yourself that the situations that you found yourself are out of this world? haha

Now look at it like this, you have the option to do something with these 2 girls. WHen you think about this thought and the many options you can do, do you have a smile on your face? Do you use a positive attitude?


When your thinking about your situation, you should be full of excitment and joy!


haha nice :P

Kev,
The problem is he is attempting to violate the golden rule of speed seduction which is: "leave them better than you found them." That has to be the number one priority, otherwise you just leave a bunch of broken hearts in your wake.

Remember:

1. You cant win them all
2. Crap happens and it happens ALOT!

half9 wrote:

1. You cant win them all
2. Crap happens and it happens ALOT!

Is this another way of saying that people are doing the best they can with the resources they have at that particular moment in time?

I am not saying that manipulating people is OK, though perhaps its not so much about what they are doing according to our models of the world and more about how those people are doing the best they can according to their beliefs and their model of the world.

I consider that according to their belief priorities and hierarchies those people could not have acted any differently at that particular moment in time. A scary and confronting concept for some that is none the less true.

Think back to any situation in your own personal life, to any event you like and test the model out for yourself. At that particular point of time and knowing what you knew then, how could you have acted any differently? Once you take hindsight out of the equation, with level of understanding of the situation at that point of time, the state of mind you were in, could you have really acted any differently? The "should have" or "could have" done this differently were not an option then or you would have done it.

I was a prime candidate of blaming and beating myself and others for the crap in my life and or my responses to the crap in my life. When you take it apart the “Crap in my life” really means the things that do not go according to how I believe or planned it to go. When I switched to viewing any uncomfortable event or situation as an opportunity to learn about myself and life, I stopped blaming and it all became less stressful, it made sense and life became more enjoyable. I made it a game.

Next time you have an argument, get angry, feel hurt or resentment about someone or something they do that offends you. Ask yourself “what this is telling me about myself?” After all you are the one who is having this reaction to the crap and not them. They will be having their own reaction to the crap.

Hopefully this will be be helpful for some.

Have a great day

Frederic

Frederic,
Nice post, sir. Nice post.