I have said that "I think" this is whats going on, not THAT it IS going on. There is no M-i-n-d R-e-a-d going on, its just a possability, and I expressed it as such. I have no oppurtunity to 'ACT AS THOUGH THAT WERE TRUE', and I am smart enough to realize that such behavior WOULD be a huge error.

Dont put words in my mouth, or attempt to twist what I say here.

I know a lot of hosed up, used up brokendown crack/meth addict women. I really do. This girl is ont like that.

Is this a feeding frenzie, or a safe place where I can ask for NLP help ???

Two posts not to your liking doth not a feeding frenzy make. And maybe you could think about why I responded as I did.

Here's a couple of pointers:

1) is it possible you express a judgemental attitude towards women? Are they either nice girls, or hosed up brokendown addicts?

2) is it possible you have a banal attitude towards NLP? Is it really possible to change a miscreant woman with a couple of NLP techniques? Or are there occasions when work on yourself might be in order?

1) sure I have a judgement attitude. Some I like and others I shy away from. Some are married, or lesbians, or too young, hard nosed, uninteresting, too fat, have mustaches, the list goes on... I like what I like, some I like and others I dont.
To me certain characteristics make something nice and others make it not so nice. I never said good or bad, or evil or worthless. I only have said that she is a 'nice girl'
Its simple, not all complex, just simple, 'A nice girl'

2a)I dont know what you mean by banal. I know what the word means, but I dont understand how it applies to NLP.
b)I never said a thing about her being miscreant. NLP is about change work. I have benifited largely from such change work. I would never have claimed the term miscreant for myself. Are you implying that anyone who has done changework through the use of NLP has been miscreant ??
c) Of course there are occasions when work on ME would be in order. That goes without saying. I never implied that I might in any way be perfect.

I came here looking for some simple answers, but instead, I get horanged by goons like you. I do not need my motives checked.

If you see something that I could change, then why dont you just tell me what you think in a kind considerate manner and I will take a look at it. Instead, you come at me with all of this. You have not even attempted to gain rapport or even to understand me. It seems like you think I have some evil, bad underlying hidden agenda, and your gonna ask (crap !!! there not even Meta questions for cripes sakes)

Your not helpful at all.

FFRDave wrote:

You have not even attempted to gain rapport or even to understand me.

The decision to have rapport of some kind is based on the understanding I see expressed in your postings. In your case, rather than feign friendliness I choose to provoke. This is not an accident. It may, however, result in you reflecting on how you come across, which may change how you communicate in future -- and in turn, how I communicate with you.

I dont ever talk to anyone who deliberatly attempts to provoke me without first being friendly. I do have friends that I trust and admire, and sometimes (rarely), during a discussion about some subject I am asking for help with, a friend will make a provocative statement.

Provocation is not a productive way to START when talking to most people. I suppose that if I went to YOU SPECIFICALY FOR PAID COUNSELING Adrian, you could lead by provolking, and I might stick around because I trust your knowlage and skill and I want a result that I think you can help me achieve. However, here on the internet, I have NOT specificaly sought YOUR counsel, you are not trusted for knowlage or skill, or paid. I have no reason to think that you (on the internet) have my best interest at heart. Under these conditions, you seem more like a bully.

I did not come to this forum to be bullied.

Try friendliness. Establish trust (why should I listen to you? How do I know that you have anything more than the next guy to offer? What experience do you bring to bear on the situation? What are your intentions?).

If you cant be nice, then stay away from my posts....

Well: no. This is not a counselling environment, and I get to provoke anyone I care to if I believe it may get them to remove their head from their ass. Why act friendly to someone who is showing no signs that indicate to me that I want to be their friend? Your need for a kick up the attitude is what I notice above all.

Specificaly, What have I said or written here that you take issue with?

I have asked you a direct question.

Now answer it directly, if you possably can.

Well.....


Im waiting.

Still waiting....

...And my post count is getting higher while I wait for my middle kicking from the smart guy.

David, why are you so passionate to resist advice that you do not agree with?

If people only told you what you already knew or already agreed with then there would be no point asking advice because, well, you already knew these bits.

You put out an SOS and someone offered you help, why the aggression?

I also believe that despite your public reaction to the posts above that they have indeed stimulated you to think along new lines about your girl and your relationship with her, has it not? That being said then the provocation is justified as it achieved a positive result.

Just a few thoughts, please dont start on me, I am not replying to your thread for my benefit.

Thanks

Matt

Oh Dear Dave,

Why wait for the "smart guy", smarter guy ? One of you at least can spell correctly, and one has not signed in since your defensiveness kicked in.

FWIW I agree with Adrian R so far, and suggest to you that your paternalistic and needy attitude to this woman is likely to be your undoing in this sorry affair.

I am glad for you that you have found a compelling attraction, but I fear that she may be out of your league, judging by your posts. I think Adrian is actually, bless him trying to be supportive in dragging you out of your adolescence into the world of adult relationships.

Since joining NLPC I have stayed out of the great PUA debate, but your selfish interpretation of her behaviour seems to have waived my better judgment, alas.

You have even future paced her immunity to your charms. What happened to her exercising choices ? At least she knows where to get a free lunch. Go girl ! She can clearly survive as a single adult. Can you ?

You will no doubt note there is little rapport here. Rapport is a choice, not a given and so is provocation, and this is a public web forum, is it not so ?

Perhaps you want folk to agree with your analysis, that you write about an emotionally scarred and disenfranchised woman, and that indeed you are the one who can help her break the chains of hurt and loss to be free to love again....... using a swish ?

Bet you would be less than pleased if after the swish she went off with your mate though ?

Before you howl in derision, I consider this good advice to you as a person, by the way, albeit intentionally challenging. Sometimes the best upset comes from strangers, not just friends in certain contexts. I have no loyalty to you and there is no contract, so I can say what I like, right ?

Good luck with your conquest however.

I may, as ever, be completely wrong of course.

MH

Malcomb,
Thank you. I am certain that you are right on target in a number of areas. When someone tels me something I am interested. You have told me some things, and I am interested.

Adrian has only offered a questioning and abrasive attitude, with few actual questions.

Matt, You too, have actualy said some things that I can get my head around.

I have read and reread Adrians posts, and I just dont relate to whatever it is that he is attempting to do, or say, or whatever.

With regards to this Nice girl,
I am very sure that I will never see her again. We talked last night a while and the truth is that she is just not available. The reasons for that lack of availability are not pertinant to me. I admit that I had her on somewhat of a pedistol, and she probably was out of my legue.

Dear Dave,

I am now feeling unnecessarily harsh on you.

FWIW I am sorry that already you see no future in this relationship, or that she has reached that conclusion so soon.

My advice, if you want it, and I appreciate you may not, is to work on what you have to do to be seduced, if not by this woman, by someone else.

Much more fun, and less effort in my opinion.

You can always say "no" if she is completely wacko or addicted to drugs.

Regards

MH

Now, you may have something there Malcomb.

Are you asking me to think about what it takes for HER TO SEDUCE ME? That is interesting. If I think in those terms, then I will be looking for her secuction of me, rather than worrieng about How I might seduce her. I will be looking for signs that she is attempting to attract me, rather than how I am going to attract her. No, I guess I dont have the right idea.
..."Work on what I have to do to be seduced" I admit it. I am a little confused by that proposal, but I wil let it sink in as it will.

I have a feeling that there is one of those "A-Ha!!" moments in my future.

Dear Dave,

I wish for you that your "Ah ha" moment comes to you soon.

It may not be with this woman, or perhaps it will, but if you are to be the catch, how can you be better than the chase ??

My latest challenge to you.

MH

Dave --

while you have been waiting for me, and sending me charming PMs, I have been travelling and doing other things.

As for my specific problem with your attitude, it is this: your belief that with a couple of NLP techniques, a woman can somehow be fixed to your liking.

This speaks of a mechanistic attitude to relationships for one thing, and an unwillingness to deal with the woman who's actually in front of you, in preference to the fantasy one you have 'mended'.

Which itself denotes an inability to perceive and partake in the give and take of relationships that comes from accepting people as they are.

Clear enough?

Adrian,
I first encountered NLP and hypnosis only a few months ago. At that time, I believed that a persons 'issues, or problems', once discoverd, would require a lot of hard work, self reflection and, possably even a year or two of counseling. A year ago, that would have been my approach to this girl.
However, I have recently learned (perhaps mistakenly) that a 'character defect, or issue, or problem' one has struggled with for perhaps years, can be utterly removed in moments through the use of NLP. This has been the case with me. Not my opinion, but rather, my experience !
So why not this girl ?

First, I would want to find out if I am correct about what her problem is. There is always mindreading, but one should not move forward with only a mindread to go by. I would not attempt any sort of therapy without being clear in my objective. My test would have been a well made metaphore (as I said above). If the metaphore rang true for her, I would ask her if she would like to be free of the difficulty that keeps her so isolated and alone (wording optional).
We would then move forward from there. Read my post from a few days ago and see if you dont recognise elements of what I am now saying there.

We have spoken, and through that discussion I have come to realize that, for whatever reason, she keeps herself very busy, to the exclusinon of most social interaction. It turns out that last weekend, not much was going on, and we lucked out. Most weekends are filled with yardwork, boys visiting her sons, church and other activities. Since she does not ever introduce her dating partners to her sons for at least two or three months it is impossable for a man she dates to join her in such weekend activities.
There are thousands of women in my area, and this is only one. A small percentage of those thousands, are women I would be interested in. That will have to be enough.

Adrian, Thank you for clarifying your issue. That was much more helpful to me than whatever was happening before. I hope I have been able to clear up a misconception or two, for you as well.

Dave.

Dave

with respect, and realizing that you may been learning NLP in a training where there is SOME supervision, its entirely inappropriate to play both change agent and potential boyfriend with a lady you just met(especially when you yourself are just learning the craft). if there is any changework to made with this woman, then let it be done by a seasned therapist who can bring THEIR judgement to the woman.

play "Romeo" or "Virginia Satir" with this lady but not BOTH

Jim

I agree.
I did have some internal reservations. I half expected someone to say what you have said just above. That is part of the reason I posted my thoughts about going forward. I am still finding my moral compas with NLP.

The trainer who taught me NLP, has, at every turn, encouraged me to use NLP without reservation. Use it, use it, use it, everywhere every day with everyone, just use it , just do it, just use it !! That has been his (pardon the loose use of the term) mantra through my whole training. His stance is that with good intentions, you (me, I) can do no harm.

This, in part, is why I am pursuing more training elsewhere. I will accept a Basic Pract. cert from him, and I will forever be grateful for what I have been exposed to. I will also expand my knowlage and use of NLP. I am already booked for NLP Basic and Master Practitioner training through Global in San Diego in November. Flight, hotel and training are already booked and my boss knows I have those two weeks off.