Hi guys

I've been wondering about NLP and hypno-based pick-up technqiues.

In my relationships with women, I aim to leave women in the same or a better place than when I met them.

The ways I've found to do that, is by being really honest about relationship expectations, making them feel good about themselves, and when it's time to move on, making sure they feel it was their decision too.

Some thoughts for PUAs are to ask themselves:

* Does your outcome match the woman's?
* Are your highervalues met by this encounter?
* Imagine yourself the next morning / next week - how do you feel about the encounter? How could you feel better?

Thanks

Viv

In my relationships with women, I aim to leave women in the same or a better palce than when I met them.

So if you meet one in Congo, would you leave her in Hawaii? You must be a real prince.

yes... I wish... I'd like to go to Hawaii...

Saying that you can leave them in a better place than when you met them is to presuppose that you know what's best for them, or that they weren't fine where they were before you came along. What if they actually changed for the worst while you were with them? THAT is a true, raw, sometimes painful ecology check, and the more often you do it, the more you realize going the PUA route isn't as ethical as one might paint it to be. I've been trying to develop my own technique seminar for some time now, and the roadblock lies in the ethical concerns.

So, any thoughts on what to PUAs should do about ethics?

Hi guys

Sometimes our actions lead to obstacles and difficulties, which we then have to overcome. There are strategies to prevent this from occurring to begin with.

If you worked on yourself, if you were a genuinely likeable man, a genuinely attractive man with a value to you that women would enjoy and be attracted to, you would never have raised or needed to deal with "ethical" issues.

Where is the "ethical" issue in being an effective and honest communicator? Where is the "ethical" issue in not boring women to death and not making them feel good states, as is in my view, a real problem for most men?

If you have just a common-or-garden set of values and are a healthy male, you would a) be attracted to and want to meet compelling and attractive women, and b) not be some sort of "unethical" predator.

To meet and charm women with warmth, skill and confidence is not "unethical".

Simply put, you are asking for permission from the rest of the world and being apologetic. You don't need it.

I like the idea that Jack and Jill went up the hill and came back with a list of 10 rules for "Pick Up Artists" to follow. But I also think that's nonsense. Living ethically is about living a life worth living, and only you can know what that means for you.

You seem to be asking for a set of rules, imposed from the outside, and that's not what ethics is really about. Ethics is a pretty interesting branch of philosophy, and it's a much broader subject than morals, for example, and even morals are more complicated than most people would happily accept.

We can't tell you who you are, any more than you can tell these women who they are. For me, living ethically isn't about leaving people in a better place than I found them, because I'm not a train, carrying people from A to B. I interact with people, and I'm responsible for my part, and other people are responsible for themselves. What's your relationship with women if you aim to decide where they end up? What does it mean about your relationships if you are "making sure they feel it was their decision too"? (Even reading those words almost brought me out in a rash!) What shines through most strongly from your message is you are trying too hard to do things to women rather than with women. I don't know if that's ethical or not, but I suspect it's not as much fun as you could be having if you let go of being in control and start treating women as equal partners.

Men wanting to meet women (and vice versa), is about as remarkable as people needing to breathe. Learning to overcome fears and having the ability to offer someone you have an interest in a wonderful time is a goal worth achieving.

This is a basic human matter, competence and awareness are much preferred over clumsiness and doubt. We cannot overcome the doubts in other people with the doubts in ourselves. If we want to give others good feelings and experiences, we have to know how to create and offer others those states. We must have dealt with our inner turmoils and have a sense of fun and value to share with them.

It's not always immediately the case that we can treat women as equal partners, sometimes we are required, as men, to lead. Leaders don't always request permission.

I agree with Chris - do things with women, not to them. Have fun, be compelling to be around and women will want to be with you.

Back to where I was at the beginning - don't complicate a basic human desire. It's as complicated as you make it, or rather, as unnecessarily complicated as you make it. Don't be apologetic about that desire.

Lloyd

I think the ethical thing would be to just be honest about your intentions and go to the places where the sort of women you want to 'pick up' are 'up' for whatever you have in mind.... if you know what I mean. That would save you a lot of hard work and the women could choose whether they wanted to leave YOU in a better place than when you 'came' or not.. how about that???

Are "ethics" even relevant here? If I am not competent on a particular matter, in this case we're talking about men meeting women, is there any question about learning the necessary skills to improve?

If I had formed a desire and set an outcome, I might need to deal with the fear and doubts that precede taking action, and then I would take action with all the skill I can. There isn't much need for "ethics" in this scenario.

I'm happy to assume our good friend Viv is not some sexual predator, and further to think that if any desirable single woman isn't a lesbian, she'd want a man.

Viv, go be that man. Do so skillfully, with warmth, charm and masculinity. Lead her imagination, make her feel good - and it may work out or it may not.

However, have fun and enjoy yourself. Lose the agonising and drop the not so useful questioning. Go out there with a sense of fun and be superior to your, ah..., 'competitiors'