Want to ask a question of members of the forum. If you have an ideas or suggestions I would really appreciate hearing your point of view.

I've been successfully using Timeline Therapy with clients in relation to the clients feelings of anger. A client today contacted me about the possibility of using a technique like this on her 14 month old child.

The child has been through a lot of trauma already. To give a brief background (As I understand it)... while the child was in the womb the mother was in a destructive environment and actively taking illegal substances. In the childs first week following its birth it took multiple police officers and social workers to remove the child from its parents. Both of its parents are currently in prison for various offences and the child is now in the care of foster parents. It is the foster parents that have contacted me.

I can only begin to imagine the anger that this child has been exposed too, and it, at a logical level, makes a degree of sense that this sort of work could be very beneficial for the child.

On the other hand, I have never done work like this before, or heard of work like this being done on a child so young.

If this situation presented itself to you, what would you be considering? Would you be saying "No, this isn't something I can assist with" or would you be considering certain options? Even if the options aren't NLP based I would be interested to hear them, but my interest is mainly from a NLP perspective.

Side note: I wonder if changing the mothers beliefs about the child being angry would make more of a difference?

14 month old children are all about exploring the world around them, what is a nice experience what is not What does this feel like what does this do what is good to eat and drink. Everything is about "me" and the relativity of the world to "me"

it is normal for frustration to appear in a child of this age. What may be important to explore is the foster mother's definition of anger and what instances she can give you of the child displaying anger. Tantrums will persist in a child that cannot express itself and until it understands that the tantrum in and of itself will not get it what it wants. Whether you use time line or not you have to establish the level of communication the child and foster mother have and work from there.

Play is important to a child in enabling them to process events, time at this age in a childs development is very often irrelavent as they tend to live in the "now". Only after some years will they start to sort out time relevancies and when /how they do it will very much depend on their life experiences.

Ask yourself whether bringing back memories of violence and neglect in a child of this age would be helpfull to them, or will it simply satisfy curiosity in someone else. Has a 14 month old child developed enough to use a timeline experience has it even got the language to be able to re-tell what has happened and what experience and resources does it have that would enable a conversation that would help.

Hi Lloyd


Side note: I wonder if changing the mothers beliefs about the child being angry would make more of a difference?- definitely.

I agree with Margaret in that children of this age tend to be living in the 'now'.

If this child had been referred to my service, I would be looking at doing systemic work with the foster parents and not working directly with the child.

This work would include setting boundaries, consistency and as Margaret has aluded to, offering positive expereinces to the child.

If the foster parents are having trouble manageing behaviour there are many options including a technique known as parent child game(PCG) where the parent plays with a chils and gets direct feedback via an earpiece with regard to modifying their own behaviour.

Chris

Hi Lloyd,

Personally, I wouldn't touch this one a barge pole, for various reasons.

I think Margaret is essentially right to question the capability of a 14 month old child to participate in this kind of work, and the ethics of doing so. What does your internal congruence tell you ?

You write,

I can only begin to imagine the anger that this child has been exposed too,

Your map is not the child's for a start. How do you propose to model out the problem in one so young ? I am not saying you are wholly wrong on a logical or content level, but to intervene without more information might be. What specific infant behaviours are being coded as "anger management difficulties" here ?

Also, if this child has been through a legal fostering process he/she will have a Social Worker I assume. Do the foster parents actually have the requisite degree of parental responsibility to request any procedure is carried out on the child, or does that rest with the Social Work department, or even the parents ? Who can consent to this child being offered any kind of treatment ? The Social Work department is also going to have access to their own "experts", though granted they may not be NLP trained, who can assess the problem, if there is one.

Maybe if the foster parents are experiencing difficulties or have concerns they should approach the Social Worker first ?

I can however understand your impulse to do some good.

When you add,

Side note: I wonder if changing the mothers beliefs about the child being angry would make more of a difference?

it might just be the (only) way to go.

My advice FWIW is to steer clear away from this one,

Regards

MH

PS. Chris O's post has just appeared while I wrote this. He is a believe a child expert. I am not, I am strictly an adult worker, which is another reason I personally would not take this on. I would encourage you to follow his advice on this one.

Lloyd,

I have to question your motives for wanting to help out here and do you have the best interests of the child in mind or is this for your benefit.

If you do decide to do some work I would be more inclined to go and observe the foster family in their home and look at them as a whole unit rather than take the kid out of the family system.

My best guess is that the child is just pushing to see where his boundaries are and possibly the foster family are not imposing and asserting boundaries with him consistently.

This is only my opinion based on my own intuition and knowledge of systemics.

Cheers,

Jason

malcombhead wrote:

Also, if this child has been through a legal fostering process he/she will have a Social Worker I assume. Do the foster parents actually have the requisite degree of parental responsibility to request any procedure is carried out on the child, or does that rest with the Social Work department, or even the parents ? Who can consent to this child being offered any kind of treatment ? The Social Work department is also going to have access to their own "experts", though granted they may not be NLP trained, who can assess the problem, if there is one.

Maybe if the foster parents are experiencing difficulties or have concerns they should approach the Social Worker first ?

Good point Malcomb. The social worker would be a good place to start. It would be important to acertain who has parental resonsibility and if the child is fostered 'out of area' there are complex issues re:funding and service responsibilities etc.

malcombhead wrote:

PS. Chris O's post has just appeared while I wrote this. He is a believe a child expert. I am not, I am strictly an adult worker, which is another reason I personally would not take this on. I would encourage you to follow his advice on this one.

Thanks Malcomb.......expert may be pushing it although I've plenty of child experience.

Chris

aikijason wrote:

Lloyd,
My best guess is that the child is just pushing to see where his boundaries are and possibly the foster family are not imposing and asserting boundaries with him consistently.

Bang on the dot in my own parenting experience with my daughter. this is how all children are. And if you are the first time parent yourself and are not sure how to handle this, have unclear ideas about which boundaries need to be set or how to set them and how to be consistent, you are in for a rough ride...

This is also the phase during which the parents have to exercise the maximum patience. Every behavior of the parent - and I literally mean every behavior - is an input for the child to learn to mimic and th elonger the child mimics, the more that behavior will get ingrained into the child. I have noticed my daughter walking with her toes angled inwards - exactly like my wife does and this was not how it was when she learnt to walk and yet she picked it up along the way and this is how it is now... This is how subtly and how definitely the children pick up many many behaviors and habits.

Regards,

- Anil

Treat the mother. Don't let her put everything on a single event and the child. Children learn quickly given a different environment.

I had a mother bring a child to me at the clinic. I played with the child a while and I couldn't see anything abnormal and the child seemed to have a grip on the parent via the complaint. Simply explaining the dynamic, normalising the behaviour within that context and putting the mothers mind at rest made a difference I found out later. Her worrying about the "problem" simply gave the child power.

I think Margaret is essentially right to question the capability of a 14 month old child to participate in this kind of work, and the ethics of doing so. What does your internal congruence tell you ?

Spot on, I think.

This thread has been bugging me from since when I first read about it until about an hour ago. The comments so far have reinforced my thoughts that there are some very kind and clever people on this site.

About an hour ago I was still trying to get my head around whether a 14 month year old can be angry and then I thought that if you substitute the word anger for frustration then does this put us in a situation where we can move on? If anger is born out of frustration then it may become easier for us to spot the triggers and routines involved with the anger/frustrated state.

I know an angry baby (who is almost 2 now) and wow, if he could speak it would be extreme Tarrantino stuff. But he lives in a routine of appalling sleep patterns and boredom. Again I focus my effory on the parents and not the ickle one.

At 14 months old nothing is undoable, one saying I love about working with kids, and which helps me through some tough times is to remember, once you have done something 3 times with them then you have created a new routine.

I can only begin to imagine the anger that this child has been exposed too, and it, at a logical level, makes a degree of sense that this sort of work could be very beneficial for the child.

As harsh as this may sound, I do mean this to be helpful. Once upon a time kids were born in caves and wrapped in dirty animal skin while their families killed and mamed each other on a daily basis. Think about the recent news case in America where the kidnapped girl had a child whilst under the control of her kidnapper. The new child never knew any better. As much as we want to fix everything for them, to the child it is just 'normal'. The child does not know anger, he/she only know stimulus and response, from now on these are things you and the foster parents can control. I onced watched a foster kid I was teaching in awe of watching two people having a heated discussion which ended in the male calmly saying "fair enough, lets try your way, how can I help". To this child every argument ended up in insults and physical fights.

On a more serious note, personally I'd ask the parents to make contact with the fostering agency who will be well funded and have contacts to deal with this as part of a long term strategy. That may well include you, but, if people start to help this little one in contrasting methods then that could possibly contribute to his confusion and then frustration.

Maybe take him to a soft play centre where he can watch other children be happy, just to show him how it is done. (ohh dont forget, the rules of pacing and leading mean you have to have fun there too!). Maybe changing his environment will change the baby. After all,we are all products of our environment.

Can I use this opportunity to post my favorite poem?

If A Child...

If a child lives with criticism, he learns to condemn.
If a child lives with hostility, he learns to fight.

If a child lives with ridicule, he learns to be shy.
If a child lives with shame, he learns to feel guilty.
If a child lives tolerance, he learns to be patient.
If a child lives with encouragement, he learns to be confident.
If a child lives with praise, he learns to appreciate.
If a child lives with fairness, he learns justice.
If a child lives with security, he learns to have faith.
If a child lives with approval, he learns to like himself.
If a child lives with acceptance and friendship, he learns to find love in the world.

Unknown Author

Redsimo wrote:

Maybe take him to a soft play centre where he can watch other children be happy, just to show him how it is done. (ohh dont forget, the rules of pacing and leading mean you have to have fun there too!). Maybe changing his environment will change the baby. After all,we are all products of our environment.

Can I use this opportunity to post my favorite poem?

If A Child...

If a child lives with criticism, he learns to condemn.
If a child lives with hostility, he learns to fight.
If a child lives with ridicule, he learns to be shy.
If a child lives with shame, he learns to feel guilty.
If a child lives tolerance, he learns to be patient.
If a child lives with encouragement, he learns to be confident.
If a child lives with praise, he learns to appreciate.
If a child lives with fairness, he learns justice.
If a child lives with security, he learns to have faith.
If a child lives with approval, he learns to like himself.
If a child lives with acceptance and friendship, he learns to find love in the world.

Unknown Author

What a fab piece of advice and what a wonderful poem.

Thanks for sharing this Matt

Sinéad

Thanks everyone for your replies and comments. Lots of different things to consider. What has really resonated with me so far was your post Matt. The part where you mentioned the child only knowing stimulus and response feels spot on. And to follow your suggestion, it sounds like providing positive examples for the child to model could be a great step in the right direction.

Also agree with the child being unlikely to have the language skills needed.

Based on what has been said I'll be going back to the mother and explore it with her, just to get a fuller idea of how she knows the child is angry. And follow the advice of people that have replied and ask her if she has considered talking to the fostering agency.

I really appreciate all the replies. The last topic I posted also had a similar response - it is really helping me learn the boundaries of where NLP can be practical by bouncing ideas off the people on this forum. Thanks!

Lloydy wrote:

Want to ask a question of members of the forum. If you have an ideas or suggestions I would really appreciate hearing your point of view.

I'm going to join the rest here and say that, essentially, the child is not "treatable" using what too many people call "NLP". I think your suggestion to yourself that working with the parental figures is spot on.

A fourteen-month-old child has nothing for a cognitive-behavioral therapist to work with. There's no belief to change, no long-term pattern to interrupt, no linguistic stuff at all. There is almost complete behavioral flexibility, and the little brain is wired for interacting with the environment... stimulus-response.

Getting angry gets him what he wants. Put a stop to that and you'll likely put a stop to the outbursts.

This, of course, assumes a healthy brain. Is there any reason to believe it isn't healthy?

As Michael alluded to,this may be more complex than anger;could the child have been born addicted to something?

Hmmm I hadn't really considered that. Quite possible but sounds like it would be way beyond the scope of anything I could help with. Will give thought to sharing your insight Andrew with the mother...

Lloydy wrote:

Hmmm I hadn't really considered that. Quite possible but sounds like it would be way beyond the scope of anything I could help with. Will give thought to sharing your insight Andrew with the mother...

Unless someone has been feeding the child drugs all along, fourteen months cold turkey is plenty to free a child of addiction. I was thinking more along the lines of some sort of organic brain disorder brought about by the mother's drug abuse.

Lloydy wrote:

Hmmm I hadn't really considered that. Quite possible but sounds like it would be way beyond the scope of anything I could help with. Will give thought to sharing your insight Andrew with the mother...

You can't even get the learned portion of addiction without intention behaviour, there is no reward to get confused. A baby has no behavioural associations to link anything to that its mother was addicted to.

Its only the learned portion that people struggle with. The physical part is quick. In fact you don't even need the physical part, you can get addicted to gambling. No baby comes out of the womb going "Where's the nearest dealer, I need to change my state?"

This has just made me realise that you can't get someone addicted to something against their will. I never thought about it like that.

This just makes my mind boggle. That addiction could be a demonstration of free will. Mental!

mrlimbic wrote:

This has just made me realise that you can't get someone addicted to something against their will. I never thought about it like that.

Sort of. The word "addicted" is rather ambiguous.

Babies are too frequently born addicted to drugs, and they can't be said to have a will. (My hospital is preparing to build a special detox unit for newborns.) People in chronic pain often get addicted to painkillers even though they consciously direct their will against it. (A good friend of mine is there.) The physical dependence is purely biological, and some drugs are worse than others. Alcohol is probably the worst.

Psychological dependence is another matter. Nobody starts taking drugs, or gambling, or whatever with the intent to get hooked, so "against their will" is really the only way anyone ever gets addicted, in a manner of speaking.

If you want to get someone addicted to something, do what the dealers do. Give them the first one free, tell them they won't get hooked, don't worry, they're too smart for that, etc. Bypass the will altogether. (Ever read C.S. Lewis' The Screwtape Letters?)

Definitely some form of brain damage is possible,regardless of whether or not the child might have become addicted to anything the mother was using,perinatal drug use would certainly have a massive impact on the neurological and psychological development and orientation of the child.
What might be done,therapy wise, is debatable;but for anything being done about the childs issues,the exposure to whatever drugs the mother was using would be an important consideration.