I have had several very unpleasant encounters with people who I believe to be suffering from Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions as to how to handle this type of person.

I have a strong preference for kinaesthetic and am extremely good at feeling the energy coming from people. Because of this I see straight through most deceptions and can quickly figure people out (this has nothing to do with NLP, I have always done this). Because of this I think I terrify the afore mentioned people and they seek to discredit me by persistant lies directed at me. I am not willing to roll over for these people, even though I know this is one way to stop their negative intentions towards me.

Any suggestions?

I was also wondering about rapport with people like this. From what I understand, rapport makes the subconscious think that you are like them. Wouldn't some people feel incredibly threatened by that. If you know you are a lying, manipulative so and so who thinks you are better than everyone else, and you meet someone who appears to be just like you. wouldn't this set off alarm bells?

Hi Stephen

Two answers:

1st:

Check out this book - "Loving the Self-Absorbed: How to Create a More Satisfying Relationship with a Narcissistic Partner."

Amazon brief states: With 5 million Americans suffering from Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) and another 10 million with the less severe syndrome Destructive Narcissistic Pattern, Loving the Self-Absorbed is a timely book. Author Nina Brown gives readers specific steps for limiting the effect of a partner's narcissistic behavior and getting what they need out of the relationship. She explains the five types of "destructive narcissism" and how to recognize their effects on a relationship. Realistic strategies show how to set mutually agreeable behaviors. Because narcissists lack natural empathy, Brown teaches readers how to change their own "fantasy" expectations, create boundaries, learn new "attending behaviors," listen and respond in a self-caring way, and learn when to avoid and ignore especially bad behavior. (ISBN-10: 1572243546)

2nd:

Rapport is about being "a cemelon on their tree" meaning that you are became an invisible part of their map of reality affecting it from within, of course outside of any conscious awareness. The person does not have to think you are the same or it really does not matter if he/she likes you - the only thing that matters is that you are "there," not recognized and able to affect their unconscious ditrectly. If they start realizing the situation you are losing your rapport, you are become visible, they become conscious of what is going on...

Cheers and regards

Steven wrote:

I was also wondering about rapport with people like this. From what I understand, rapport makes the subconscious think that you are like them. Wouldn't some people feel incredibly threatened by that. If you know you are a lying, manipulative so and so who thinks you are better than everyone else, and you meet someone who appears to be just like you. wouldn't this set off alarm bells?

Hi Steven. Just wanted to share my thoughts on pacing the Narcissists. It is true that a more important element in pacing and developing rapport is to pace the beliefs and values of the other person. Obviously, for the Narcisist, the consistent belief would be "I am important". For him, he is important. Now, you don't go and pace him projecting that you are important, but that he is important. That is the right way to pace him. All his interactions with you, as you well know, will be the projection of his beliefs about himself and he would value himself more than anything else. So, if you set out to pace him, pace his beliefs about his own importance, not projecting that you are important, because that would only make matters worse. Feeding a Narcissist's beliefs about himself could be the worst thing to do. But the way I see it, if you want to get rapport with him to achieve some outcome, you will have to do just that. Anything else would only lead to confrontation, IMO. Whether you should actually go about doing it, is a choice you alone will have to make.

Vivek.

Thanks Jurek, I will give that book a try. Whenever I ask a question on here someone recommends a book to read! I've got quite a few to get through lol.

Vivek, I know pacing their reality works because I have seen other people do it. In my opinion this does make matters worse, especially for the people who don't pace their reality because it validates the narcissists map of the world. Also, if the person being targeted is less able to deal with the attacks than me or they are insecure, someone backing the narcissist up could make the victim feel like they deserve this treatment. As I said in my OP I am not willing to do this.

Thankyou for clearing up my confusion about rapport, I understand it better now

Hi Steven,

Steven wrote:

I have had several very unpleasant encounters with people who I believe to be suffering from Narcissistic Personality Disorder

Can I ask what behaviours of theirs lead you to that conclusion ?

and

I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions as to how to handle this type of person.

It is clear so far to me what you do not want to do, but I fail to see to what end you want to handle this kind of person, or quite how their behaviour becomes your problem.

Do you want to,

a. Change them ?
b. Change yourself ?
c. Avoid conflict ?
d. Resolve conflict ?
e. Other ?

As pointed out so far, rapport is a choice, and breaking rapport is another choice. Why would you want to be in rapport with a person like this ? To what end ?

Pace...Pace...Pace some more and lead, but lead to where ? I can understand that you would not necessarily wish to foster self deluded beliefs around their esteem, but you could pace entirely non-verbally and invisibly in pursuit of your well formed outcome, whatever it is, especially as you are strong kinaesthetically.

Reading between the lines a bit, or even a lot, I wonder if your outcome is one of personal state management and working towards greater immunity from their implied superiority over you ? Or is that something you infer ? What stops you simply being more interested in other people or other matters than these grandiose communications of inflated self worth, or perceived personal swipes at you ?

After all, if they really are disordered and could be diagnosed, (were they to consent to that which is unlikely) these unpleasant behaviours are predictable or even necessary for the other person, like an alcoholic might be expected to have a drink. Would you pay similar attention to the burbling, slurring or aggressive drunk or find something else to do ?

When your personal outcome is more clear, it might be easier to give you direct advice.

Respectfully, I look forward to your reply.

MH

Hi Steven. There is a chapter about the type of people you are referring to, in Andy Austin's Rainbow Machine; great book, very useful.

Vivek.

Can I ask what behaviours of theirs lead you to that conclusion ?

Displaying all nine of the criteria on a daily basis. I have a pretty good understanding of NPD and I am positive they are narcissists

It is clear so far to me what you do not want to do, but I fail to see to what end you want to handle this kind of person, or quite how their behaviour becomes your problem.

Do you want to,

a. Change them ?
b. Change yourself ?
c. Avoid conflict ?
d. Resolve conflict ?
e. Other ?

If possible I would like to help them to be able to feel happy without the need to feed their addiction. I recognise that this may not be possible, and if it is, it would certainly have to be done covertly. I have no experience of covert change. Failing this I would like to be able to fly under their radar so they don't target me specifically. The two people I am talking about had it in for me specifically over anyone else, for the reasons I mentioned before. There manipulations have no affect on me directly so they turn others against me.

As pointed out so far, rapport is a choice, and breaking rapport is another choice. Why would you want to be in rapport with a person like this ? To what end ?

I don't. I have just been wondering this for a while. I get this part now

Reading between the lines a bit, or even a lot, I wonder if your outcome is one of personal state management a nd working towards greater immunity from their implied superiority over you ? Or is that something you infer ? What stops you simply being more interested in other people or other matters than these grandiose communications of inflated self worth, or perceived personal swipes at you ?

As I said before, they have no affect on me directly. I am extremely secure in myself and at no point does anything they say affect my own self worth. The thing is, I think they see this and this is part of what scares them into trying to get me out of the picture

After all, if they really are disordered and could be diagnosed, (were they to consent to that which is unlikely) these unpleasant behaviours are predictable or even necessary for the other person, like an alcoholic might be expected to have a drink. Would you pay similar attention to the burbling, slurring or aggressive drunk or find something else to do ?

Both times I have had this issue I have been unable to avoid any very real negative consequences from their behaviour as it involves turning people against me.

Thanks

Vivek Venugopal wrote:

Hi Steven. There is a chapter about the type of people you are referring to, in Andy Austin's Rainbow Machine; great book, very useful.

Vivek.

Oh joy, another book lol

Thanks vivek, I will order it now

Dear Steven,

Thanks for the clarifications. I am of course glad that your self esteem remains intact, although as observed, this may be why these folk perceive you as a potential threat to their own dubious sense of self. By the way, are you talking about a family, social or work situation ? I ask because the context may well steer the choices that are open to you.

If these people are as you describe, their behaviour will be across the board, although the intensity may vary. In terms of the malicious lies they seek to spread about you, I think that in time they will come back to haunt the originators rather than yourself. You may trust that mutual third parties also have a similar impression of these people, even if they describe the individuals in different terms, and are therefore capable of making up their own minds not just about these people, but also your good self. You might well know that they tried to turn others against you, but have you any evidence that they actually succeeded ?

Of course you might want an immediate solution, rather than waiting for the Divine Angel of Karmic Retribution (that does not have to be you by the way) to do their work and dismantle these constructs.

I am sure you appreciate that their behaviours are likely to have a significant history and manifest in many of their relationships. They will therefore have a number of well rehearsed strategies to fulfil their outcomes around bolstering their self esteem. Before talking about covert change, or anything like that, if you have to spend time directly with them, you can amuse yourself by modelling what those strategies are, not just in terms of your own second position, but also by watching them do the same with others (3rd position).

When you understand how they are doing this internally to them, you will be in a better, i.e. more informed position to intervene, should you wish to do so by meddling with their strategies.

By the way, I think your ambition for them, to help them covertly to retain their esteem without the need to feed their addiction is ambitious, and quite possibly counterproductive when it comes to becoming free from their attentions. If they already have it in for you, perhaps you could leave the changework to others? My guess is that the folk you are referring to are not inclined to personal changework, covert or otherwise anyway, and we are back to Vivek's point about rapport building, which you resist (even non-verbally, even if it is useful?)

If I may respectfully make a point about your stated outcomes, they are not well formed.

Steven wrote:

If possible I would like to help them to be able to feel happy without the need to feed their addiction.

(So what are they going to do instead and what are you going to do to get them to do the other?)

and

Failing this I would like to be able to fly under their radar so they don't target me specifically.

These statements invite lots of clarifying questions which you may well be able to do yourself, and I tend to agree with you that were you able to "fly under their radar", relief might be closer at hand. However there is no guarantee that assuming "stealth mode" will actually yield this result.

If however you wish to try it, invisibilty is about being outside of their perceptions. I do not mean avoidance in the classic sense, but a choice on your part to be outside their field of vision if you are in the same room, ensuring that your own voice tones are subdued if you happen to be in earshot, allowing others to be perceived as the threat etc. if that is acceptable to you ?

I do not think that these two people will give up their trusted defence mechanisms through direct confrontation, or an exageration of your responses to what they do, even if you take that to extremes for fun in terms of your own behavioural flexibility. The context may well dictate the possible extremes of your behaviour anyway, and of course, you are clear about what you are not prepared to do.

However, I hope that there is at least some element of this response that enables you to take some more control of the situation through becoming more curious about how they do this, paying attention to where their attention goes, playing with your own movement, spatial awareness and voice tones etc. This might include cleverly and confidently doing nothing at all, and seeing what happens then.

You already seem to have a good understanding of what is going on, but don't let that delete new information that might yet be the key to resolving your concerns.

Regards

MH

Do you want to,

a. Change them ?
b. Change yourself ?
c. Avoid conflict ?
d. Resolve conflict ?
e. Other ?

Thanks Malcomb for reinforcing fundamentals. How useful! Helped me to understand that we may get dangerously close to becoming narcissistic ourselves, should we want to change others just because we want to change them!!! (Hopefully not be like us)

Cheers and regards

Malcomb wrote:

If these people are as you describe, their behaviour will be across the board, although the intensity may vary. In terms of the malicious lies they seek to spread about you, I think that in time they will come back to haunt the originators rather than yourself. You may trust that mutual third parties also have a similar impression of these people, even if they describe the individuals in different terms, and are therefore capable of making up their own minds not just about these people, but also your good self.

That's a great piece of advice, Malcomb. People who are crooked/self-centred hurt themselves far more than hey do others. Thanks for bringing in the point.

Vivek.

I think I need to point out that I am no longer having trouble with these people. One of them was a work colleague who was sacked a while ago for this behaviour and the other is my brother who has in my opinion, realised he is narcissistic and done a very good job of becoming a better person, and I actually get along with him now. What I want is a plan of action in case I meet someone else like this.

I will try and make my outcome more well formed:

I have stated that I think I unintentionally intimidate insecure and dominant people. What I would like to do is not intimidate them whilst retaining my dignity and not have to pace their reality. I have seen other people do this to great effect, but I am not willing to sell my soul in this way.

Malcomb, I think you are right in saying that it may be a bit ambitious to change them. The only way I know of this happening is if they learn of NPD on their own and make their own decision to try and stop the behaviour. This seems to be what my brother has done and believe it or not, I actually think he may now be capable of a limited form of empathy. I'm fairly sure of this as I have felt him feel it (if that makes sense). He even once gave me a piece of unasked for advice on how to handle the other narcissist at work. He must have known that by revealing this to me he was telling me a potential weakness of his own, but he did it anyway. Unfortunately, I know I can never speak to him openly about this as his defences would immediately raise again.

Found this interesting when it was on a while back..

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O96wdo3N2Zg"]YouTube - Narcissist - Egomania - Documentary - [part 1][/ame]

Dear John,

Very interesting documentary...thanks for putting it up. For now at least I shall resist putting myself up for psychiatric assessment, but that might be part of my condition of course.

Regards

MH

This one seems to be comnprehensive:

How To Deal With Narcissistic Behavior

From definuition to roles and rules to fight back (if you must).

Regards & Cheers

Hi Steven,

Despite the unpleasantness you associate with your encounters with two folk who may have NPD traits in your view, one has been removed from your reality, the other has changed in a positive way, and your self esteem remains robust. I would therefore respectfully suggest that you already have coping mechanisms/strategies for dealing with these people. If you could tease out what they have been, it might be useful to you.

Steven wrote:

will try and make my outcome more well formed:

I have stated that I think I unintentionally intimidate insecure and dominant people. What I would like to do is not intimidate them whilst retaining my dignity and not have to pace their reality.

This bit needs a bit of work, trust me.

Interestingly, you anticipate possible future problems between you and this type of person. I have read carefully what you have posted here and thought about what you have said. I have had a few more thoughts about "undercover operations" but they involve building rapport tied to well formed outcomes. What do you think ?

Steven wrote:

I have seen other people do this to great effect, but I am not willing to sell my soul in this way.

Out of curiosity, sell your soul to whom ?

Regards

MH

malcombhead wrote:

Despite the unpleasantness you associate with your encounters with two folk who may have NPD traits in your view, one has been removed from your reality, the other has changed in a positive way, and your self esteem remains robust. I would therefore respectfully suggest that you already have coping mechanisms/strategies for dealing with these people. If you could tease out what they have been, it might be useful to you.

I think you are missing the point, I can cope with them just fine, but that is the problem. They see that none of their tricks work on me and this is what scares them. I had nothing to do with the positive outcomes for the two people in question. One was fired for her behaviour towards a different person and the other changed entirely of his own free will. before the positive outcome they both had it in for me more than anyone else. The strategy that allows my self esteem to remain intact is what makes them target me with their lies. I may still be confident but there are still many people who believe that I am the way the narcissists portraid me to be. this is what I want to avoid

malcombhead wrote:

This bit needs a bit of work, trust me.

I know. I am a newby to NLP so please humour me. I've only done the diploma.

malcombhead wrote:

Out of curiosity, sell your soul to whom ?

To the narcissist of course. The people who I have seen doing this end up as just a plaything of the narcissist. Unable to voice their own opinions and having to suck up to them on a daily basis. They trade in their dignity and their individuality in order to avoid the worst of the abuse. I refuse to conform to their self serving and highly delusional world view, but some people do just that.

JurkMalecki wrote:

This one seems to be comnprehensive:

How To Deal With Narcissistic Behavior

From definuition to roles and rules to fight back (if you must).

Regards & Cheers

Thanks Jurek.

I've found most advice like this doesn't actually work because you just end up infuriating the narcissist which drives them to try and remove you from the picture. I have read a few times that you should hint to them that you have some kind of evidence that could humiliate them and this would frighten them into running away from the situation. Please, please don't ever do this if you come across a narcissist. Instead of running away they intensify the lies in order to discredit you. The reason they do this is so nobody will believe you if you do tell people of this evidence you have.

Here's a resource that might prove helpful: Right Man Syndrome by Andrew T. Austin

Hi Steven (and all),

Steven wrote:

I think you are missing the point

This is always a possibility, and,

Steven wrote:

I can cope with them just fine, but that is the problem.

What point are you trying to make ? That you deal with them fine or that the way you deal with them generates problems ? You say that whatever it is that you have been doing makes these people lie about you. An interesting cause and effect, maybe these people are liars anyway, but that aside, remember it is easier to change your own behaviour than someone else's.

The trouble of course with giving behavioural advice is that it does not come from you in the first place, and the same with outcomes. I am clear about what you do not want, but may well be missing the point about what you do want out of these types of encounters.

Having thought about this interesting thread, as I said, I fear that we could continue like this and get completely lost in our relative and different descriptions of communication content and its meanings.

I would invite you to take a step back from what all this might mean, and examine the process between you and these people.

I have proposed however meeting these people non-verbally in terms of pacing. I think I understand the reservation about pacing their realities in terms of expressed content, but really it does not matter about the conversation content if you are working in this way. You could talk about anything, the weather, your mother's shoe size, grandma's special sponge cake recipe, it really does not matter. It should be easy to get them to talk about themselves of course, and you might trust that the focus of their attention into themselves gives you a better chance of non-verbally slipping under the radar, which is one thing I think you did want, right ?

When in disordered mode, these people will carry cetain physiologies. Pace it and lead their physiology to a new one. My premise is that once you lead their physiology into a different one, their behaviour will change. This involves no pacing or reinforcing, or threatening of their beliefs or attitudes.

This approach,

a. might even work
b. if it doesn't will give you useful feedback
c. can help to develop your sensory acuity and ability to utilise non-verbal cues.
d. may help you feel to you are doing something positive to forward your outcome or even be in control of the situation.

When I talk about pacing non-verbally I would encourage you to notice as far as you are able such aspects as breathing, body posture, balance, voice tones and rhythm of speech or movement etc. If the leading appears not to work, go back and pace some more. When they are carrying a new physiology, their behaviour will be different and new results may come to the fore. Its got to be better than feeling stuck, defensive or paranoid, right ?

When you do get them to do their thing differently and like their response, consider a subliminal anchor that you might apply in a future situation. Think of that as your insurance policy.

I would be interested also in what some others think about exploring the nature of Personality Disorders through NLP filters generally, as well as informing this debate about NPD type syndromes, or difficult behaviours that can be described in those terms.

MH