When speaking to potential clients experiencing grief after a loss, so far it's only been people who've experienced the loss very recently so I gave them all the advice that grief is a natural process that needs to take its time and that's what they need to do. If they aren't back to their ordinary life within a reasonable time, call me again.

Being put myself into the position of two old friends commiting suicide recently, I find it extremely difficult to follow my own advice. Grief needs to take its time, yes, but I have work that needs to be done. I try to focus on whats important for now but it keeps reappearing when I need it the least. And when I take some time off I find myself doing mundane things just to keep the mind off whats happened.

Any suggestions?

Dear Damian

I do not know you, and I respond to your post, which I believe is sincere with caution and respect.

FWIW I think your advice to other people is sound, as in ethical and wise, and I suspect, therefore good advice to you also.

I read your posts on this forum and I am sure that, come the time, you have the knowledge and resources to come to terms with what has happened when you are ready to do so. I therefore hope to refrain from potentially condescending advice and pointers towards obvious literature, (likewise the meta model).

Already I feel the temptation to negate that stated outcome.

I too have lost two close friends to suicide, but unlike you, not recently, and with a decent chunk of time in between (about 8 and 15 years ago respectively). One of them was a particularly close friend. I think any loss of a cared about person is difficult, but when it is sudden it is more complicated, and suicide is more complicated again.

You are it seems at some level making the choice to be distracted by recent events. For now I would encourage you to honour that choice and do what you have to do.

I will willingly discuss some of my own experience if it might be helpful to you. Please feel welcome to PM me if you wish.

I have been thinking about my own dead friends since I read your post. Please allow me, stranger though I am, to say sorry for your loss.

MH

Damian wrote:

Being put myself into the position of two old friends commiting suicide recently, I find it extremely difficult to follow my own advice.

First, please let me join Malcomb in expressing sorrow for your loss and respect for you.

I'm assuming you're familiar with the Kübler-Ross model of grieving:

1. Denial
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
5. Acceptance

You may or may not be aware that testing of this model reveals that these stages have been found to not be "stages" at all; the bereaved don't progress one to the next, but can and do shift among them at will. To me, it's as if every person who suffers a large loss has five different questions to answer for themselves, and they wrestle with whichever one they choose in a given moment.

So only you can say where you are right now within the model, or even if you choose to accept the model at all. I can't figure out whether you're saying "I shouldn't still be grieving like this" or "I should still be grieving like this, but life simply has to go on somehow". Or maybe something else.

If grieving to that degree is correct for you right now, might I suggest that you set aside some time every day to do it? Quite clearly, their memories deserve it, so a period of time, perhaps in the evening, within which you can honor them and work through your pain will free up the energy you've been investing in trying to put it all aside. If it should come up while you work, you can assure yourself that you will think those thoughts and that you will feel those feelings... when you can do so fully.

If you feel that you should have gotten past this much of it, I'll suggest entering into a dialogue with it. Ask the grief what keeps it from moving forward. You've no doubt done similar things.

Good luck. If you would, please keep us up to date.

Thank you so much both of you, please know that I really appeciate your offer Malcolm.

I did have a dialogue with my unconsious just before bedtime, and I asked my unconsious to process everything that needed to be dealt with during my sleep, only at the rate and extent it was comfortable doing it.

Woke up the next day feeling very refreshed and the reason I haven't replied in this thread yet is that I've been busy doing what I was previously unable to do.

Michael, you were so right in suggesting to putting time aside for the grieving process. Whenever I feel disoriented again I stop everything I am doing for a while, it doesn't take as much time as I thought. Most times only a few minutes.

Not sure what to expect this weekend, which I've dedicated to just relaxing and taking it easy. But I feel confident now in dealing with whatever comes up.

Thanks, both of you.

Damian wrote:

Woke up the next day feeling very refreshed and the reason I haven't replied in this thread yet is that I've been busy doing what I was previously unable to do.

Excellent! I'm so glad.

Michael, you were so right in suggesting to putting time aside for the grieving process. Whenever I feel disoriented again I stop everything I am doing for a while, it doesn't take as much time as I thought. Most times only a few minutes.

It possibly seemed longer in the middle of it.

Not sure what to expect this weekend, which I've dedicated to just relaxing and taking it easy. But I feel confident now in dealing with whatever comes up.

What's the most fun you think you can have in a single weekend?

Thanks, both of you.

You're welcome. Thanks for the update.

Damian wrote:

Thank you so much both of you, please know that I really appeciate your offer Malcolm.

I did have a dialogue with my unconsious just before bedtime, and I asked my unconsious to process everything that needed to be dealt with during my sleep, only at the rate and extent it was comfortable doing it.

Woke up the next day feeling very refreshed and the reason I haven't replied in this thread yet is that I've been busy doing what I was previously unable to do.

Michael, you were so right in suggesting to putting time aside for the grieving process. Whenever I feel disoriented again I stop everything I am doing for a while, it doesn't take as much time as I thought. Most times only a few minutes.

Not sure what to expect this weekend, which I've dedicated to just relaxing and taking it easy. But I feel confident now in dealing with whatever comes up.

Thanks, both of you.

Dear Damian,

My heartfelt condolences for your loss. . . I hope that you continue to take all the time you need to process these painful losses. To that end, I'd like to offer up a little personal (not professional) advice.

After I lost my husband very suddenly 8 years ago, I found myself in a very similar situation. Death in the abstract (as a concept or as an eventuality) is quite different than our personal experience of it.

Although it would have been tempting to try to push myself into a different state with NLP techniques, I intuitively knew that it would be inappropriate. The fact that you too 'know' this, does not make the grieving process any easier however. When we are in pain, we want the pain to end. It takes courage (and hope) to reassemble the pieces of our lives after a loss.

The death of a loved one is not simply the loss of the other. It is also the loss of your identity in relation to the other and the loss of the very fragile illusion of our sense of a 'permanent' world. The grieving process is critical to the evolution of the new identity, values and beliefs you are reassembling light of it.

As much as I respect and admire Kubler-Ross' work, I found it of little comfort when it came time to process my own grief (which seemed at the time endless).
I knew the 'stages' of grief, but I was unprepared and overwhelmed to discover that I could not 'find comfort' in knowing that what I was going through was normal. In fact, because I did not have (nor have I ever had) an experience of anger regarding my husband's death, it was tempting to think I was having trouble processing my grief in a healthy way. Had I continued to follow this line of thinking, I would have ended up chasing a 'red herring'.

Over time, I came to discover that it was better to think of my grieving process as unique and natural to me. More importantly, I realized that there wasn't any magic 'finish line' that I would someday cross that would finally end the process.

Damian, there will never be a time when it will be okay that you have lost a person you love. Unlike other painful experiences that we can re-evaluate and re-define as positive, such that we can look back and say "that was tough, but I'm glad I went through it", the death of a loved one will never be 'okay' no matter how much you've learned, gained or experienced because of it.

So make peace with the fact that there is no magical finish line. . . you will always miss your friends and regret their deaths (and the fact that they were in such pain they took their own lives). What you can do, however, is to try to find meaning in your losses.

Transcending our losses (by finding some personal meaning in them) makes them more personally bearable by honoring the individual who has left us and our relationship with them. It makes meaning out of their time here with us, and allows us to keep their spirit alive within our own lives because they continue to inform our living in positive and meaningful ways. It allows us to find a sense of purpose in the loss by choosing to live with a sense of purpose in remembrance of them.

Some things that helped me:

A book I found very comforting and helpful during my earlier grieving process was 'Transcending Loss" by Davis-Prend. It was the most relevant book in helping me to design a healthy, spiritual, and practical way back to life.

Setting aside time is a wonderful piece of advice and I'd like to add that a constructive use of the time is even more important. Try journaling. Journaling your thoughts can help immensely. In looking back over the pages of my journal, I could see how my thinking and feelings were evolving over time. When you're in the middle of the forest without a path in front of you, it useful to look back. Seeing the path you've cut for yourself behind you will help you realize just how far you've already come.

And when you are ready to take a 'next step' I would highly recommend Connirae Andrea's NLP process, Resolving Grief in "Heart of the Mind".

Wishing you a 'peace' in the puzzle,

Lucia

mindopoly wrote:

After I lost my husband very suddenly 8 years ago, I found myself in a very similar situation. Death in the abstract (as a concept or as an eventuality) is quite different than our personal experience of it.

Losing a spouse is, in many ways, the worst.

It isn't just that we loved them; it's that we gave them responsibility for certain aspects of our selves. She is the one who keeps in touch; she dies and he stops hearing from anyone. He pays the bills and balances the checkbook; he dies and, a couple of months later, the lights get shut off and the car gets repossessed. She reminds him to take his medicine; she dies, and a few months later, so does he.

I've heard grieving spouses describe it as "I feel like I've lost my mind." It's because, in a very real way, they have.

When we are in pain, we want the pain to end. It takes courage (and hope) to reassemble the pieces of our lives after a loss.

Well said.

As much as I respect and admire Kubler-Ross' work, I found it of little comfort when it came time to process my own grief (which seemed at the time endless).

Agreed, and I don't think her work is meant for the person who is grieving. I think it's for the people around them. I only brought it up because I hoped to inspire a mild interruption/dissociation in the reader.

because I did not have (nor have I ever had) an experience of anger regarding my husband's death, it was tempting to think I was having trouble processing my grief in a healthy way. Had I continued to follow this line of thinking, I would have ended up chasing a 'red herring'.

This is pretty consistent with my idea that the "stages" are actually questions to answer or philosophical problems to solve. Maybe you had the answer to "the anger" already.

When I had a heart attack a couple of years ago, I never denied it or tried to bargain with anything. I can't say I was truly depressed, either, though I certainly felt sad. I accepted what happened... and oh, boy, was I ever angry. I'm still dealing with angry.

I realized that there wasn't any magic 'finish line' that I would someday cross that would finally end the process.

True. Acceptance doesn't imply that you're done. There's no rule that says anybody ever has to "get over it." Ever. If you do, that's great. If you don't, that's still great.

A book I found very comforting and helpful during my earlier grieving process was 'Transcending Loss" by Davis-Prend.

Interesting. [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Transcending-Loss-Ashley-Davis-Prend/dp/042515775X/"]amazon link[/ame]

Try journaling.

I used to think of that as a silly and self-indulgent idea and a way to go swimming in the problem rather than to solve it. I thought the same thing about David Allen's Getting Things Done (get your to-do list out of your head and onto paper) at first. But Allen explained it in a way that made sense to me: it takes a lot of energy to maintain stuff in your head, and putting it on paper frees all of that energy so you can re-direct it to getting things done.

Much to my surprise and delight, it does make a difference.

Michael_DeBusk wrote:

Losing a spouse is, in many ways, the worst.

It isn't just that we loved them; it's that we gave them responsibility for certain aspects of our selves. She is the one who keeps in touch; she dies and he stops hearing from anyone. He pays the bills and balances the checkbook; he dies and, a couple of months later, the lights get shut off and the car gets repossessed. She reminds him to take his medicine; she dies, and a few months later, so does he.

I've heard grieving spouses describe it as "I feel like I've lost my mind." It's because, in a very real way, they have.

So perhaps the grieving is not about the person they lost but the part of themselves that has been lost.

Maybe part of supporting people through the grieving period is helping them to find strategies and resources to mange those bits they had previously devolved responsibility for.

John

Say a famous quote and your name will live forever - Anonymous

z8000783 wrote:

So perhaps the grieving is not about the person they lost but the part of themselves that has been lost.

It's tough to draw a line between those. As Lucia said, it gets to be an identity issue... who are we in the context of the other person?

Maybe part of supporting people through the grieving period is helping them to find strategies and resources to mange those bits they had previously devolved responsibility for.

It's usually considered a kindness to plan in advance for this sort of thing for those who depend on you. I haven't completely finished this planning, but I've started.

Michael_DeBusk wrote:

It's tough to draw a line between those. As Lucia said, it gets to be an identity issue... who are we in the context of the other person?

So when the other person goes they take a little of our identity with them.

I would certainly not be a husband without my wife or a Father without my children (or a connecty without NLP Connections)

John

Don’t think in one-liners because life is not an action movie

z8000783 wrote:

So when the other person goes they take a little of our identity with them.

In a sense, yes, I think so.

Dear John,

You wrote,

"So perhaps the grieving is not about the person they lost but the part of themselves that has been lost.

Maybe part of supporting people through the grieving period is helping them to find strategies and resources to mange those bits they had previously devolved responsibility for."

I agree with Michael, in a sense you are correct I think, my mother being a case in point. When my father died (2001), and we were going through stuff as you do, I was astounded that she did not recognise her own cheque card, had never paid a gas bill etc. She can now do those things, but there is still a world of difference between sharing a bottle of wine, and drinking on your own.

Grieving is largely, I would suggest IS about the person they lost. Behaviours are very much secondary to that.

MH

malcombhead wrote:

Grieving is largely, I would suggest IS about the person they lost. Behaviours are very much secondary to that.

MH

So what IS it about losing that person person then?

The person may not know at the concious level of course and also everyone will grief differently however there will be something specific and unique for that person.

John

The person who cannot visualize a horse galloping on a tomato is an idiot

Dear John,

I agree with what you have written on this thread so far.

When you wrote,

"Maybe part of supporting people through the grieving period is helping them to find strategies and resources to mange those bits they had previously devolved responsibility for."

I think that is correct. What I am seeking to emphasise (perhaps not very well so far is the other part(s) of supporting ourselves or others through a grieving process beyond reclaiming devolved responsibilities and fractions of identity.

To be more explicit, I mean aspects like missing the shared joke that is told with a glance, and no words, or the sharing of hard times, and abundance, for example. As you point out, the detail is in the individual relationships, but goes along the lines of the shared rapport, the insight the other had into self that is lost, leaving the bereaved blinded and handicapped by their own limited awareness. This is more than a simple behaviour, I think, and a resource lost to the individual identity. In supporting the other I do not believe that the survivors should or could seek to replace that kind of intimacy that really is lost and cannot be replaced through education or therapy.

As already highlighted in this thread, knowing the theory is of little comfort at the time.

This lyric puts it better than I can right now,

"Well, you covered your tracks
and now I can't see you
You had your ashes scattered at sea
There's no grave to visit no tombstone to look at
You were in the NY Times obituary
There's no record no tape no book no movie
Some photographs and memories
Sometimes I dial your phone number by mistake
and this is what I hear

This is no longer a working number baby
Please redial your call
This is no longer a working number
Your party doesn't live here anymore
This is no longer a working number
If you still require help
Stay on the line and an operator
Will try to bail you out

I knew I should have seen you that Thursday
I knew I shouldn't have left
But you sounded so good your spirits so up
I thought I'd see you next week
I say over and over if I had half a brain
If I had half a brain in my head
I wouldn't sit here dialing a wrong number
and listening to what some recording said

I know I should have written, written things down
I always say I'll never forget
Who can forget a one eyed pilot
Who's a concert pianist
A painter a poet songwriter supreme ?
My friends are blending in my head
They're melding into one great spirit
and that spirit isn't dead

Now I may not remember everything that you said
but I remember all the songs you've done
And not a day goes by, not an hour
when I don't try to be like you
You were gassed stoked and rarin to go
and you were that way all the time
So I guess you know why I'm laughing at myself
every time I dial the wrong line

This is no longer a working number baby"

Gassed and Stoked - Lou Reed

Nuff said ?

MH

"To be more explicit, I mean aspects like missing the shared joke that is told with a glance, and no words, or the sharing of hard times, and abundance, for example. As you point out, the detail is in the individual relationships, but goes along the lines of the shared rapport, the insight the other had into self that is lost, leaving the bereaved blinded and handicapped by their own limited awareness. This is more than a simple behaviour, I think, and a resource lost to the individual identity. In supporting the other I do not believe that the survivors should or could seek to replace that kind of intimacy that really is lost and cannot be replaced through education or therapy."

Hi, nice thoughts.

I believe we all serve as catalysts and historians in each other's lives . . . sometimes in some very exclusive ways (the spouse who is the only intimate witness to a life-altering event, i.e, the birth of a child). When we lose a loved one, new strategies and behaviors can replace old ones. However, no one and nothing can ever substitute for the person lost. The shared experiences - the memories and intimacies - are changed without the relational context of the other. I think that this is why divorced people (even when the divorce is amicable and desired) inevitably go though a grieving period. The other as keeper and sustainer of a person's perceived identity level experiences has "moved on" from that role.

Although grief is a universal experience, like love, we would be hard pressed to define it in concrete terms. In the absence of the "keeper", the closest we can come is to 'tell our stories' in the hopes of giving comfort to one another. In this way, we can find a new home for our memories, while continuing to nurture the best aspects of ourselves that grew out of our past.

Wishing you a peace in the puzzle,

Lucia

Dear Lucia,

"Although grief is a universal experience, like love, we would be hard pressed to define it in concrete terms. In the absence of the "keeper", the closest we can come is to 'tell our stories' in the hopes of giving comfort to one another. In this way, we can find a new home for our memories, while continuing to nurture the best aspects of ourselves that grew out of our past."

Beautifully put.

MH