He is 17. And has already been to see an NLP practitioner four times. It works, then comes back. Apparently he can eat chocoloate, so there is an element of choice.

My first meeting with him tomorrow (and mum)

I am well into strategies now and will elicit his swollowing hesitation strategy.

I also plan to work on beliefs and belief change. Chunking up to get higher intention for behaviour and applying not-not language patterns.

I am wondering if he could have choice to eat/ not eat other than getting this swallowing hesitation...?

The mum believes it was because his dad told him over lunch he was having a sister and was getting remarried and that is when it started. (I'm not taking her word for it)

That made it sound like a one-time learned behaviour (which would resemeble phobia) but the fear associated with phobia is not there - there is just the behaviour.

Would the same principles still apply?

I love the experienced input on this forum !
Nina

Hi Nina
it will be much easier to help with some suggestions after we know some more information. At the moment It would all be guess work.
Who knows?

When you are able to tell us some of the language patterns he is using and other meta modeled information, plus his strategies etc it will at least give us some direction to make suggestions. Because we are not sitting in front of him and you are we will only really be able to give clues and hints.

I personally do not believe that NLP is something that is just a a painting by numbers platform of change-work.
I have known people in the past who would look for just enough evidence to be able to frame the condition into a fast phobia cure or Parts integration that they almost created the conditions to do what they had already decided was the best course of action.
I even remember some of them writing hypnotic scripts in advance after a small telephone conversation and being miffed that the client had then asked for a different issue to be dealt with on the day

My advice for what it's worth would be to let the session unfold on the day and to be ready for everything and prepared for nothing.

Best of luck
Peter

I hear what you say and totally agree about letting the session unfold.

So in order to be ready for everything my map is urging me to exploring other peoples experience...

Otherwise all I would ever have would be a lot of great hindsights :0)

It's an behaviour experienced as involuntary - and i am curious what success and approaches others experienced practitioners have had success with in relation to issues such as nail biting, scratching, picking, and other ... and i am also interested in what didn't work and ideas as to how/ why/

I am looking for approaches, not necessarily specific tecniques although I am interested to hear what other specific techniques people have used, and had success with.

I think I'll chose to interpret what you are saying as, just remember to know you know enough and have everything already ready and relax - which is a novel concept in my map... but I'll give it a go! :0)



I'd still like to hear other peoples experiences

Hi Nina
yes your spot on with my intention of your summery

This is yet another reason why I like to work content free when I can. If you know what the person is wanting to change it is very easy to put up filters for that condition from past experiences which can get in the way.
If you do not know what you are dealing with it becomes pure process and calibration and rapport. I find that in that instance rapport and calibration become automatic as both I and the client are in trance together. It can conduct a very elegant process of change-work.
Looking back all my best work has been when I was not there, but very much there in an UC sense.
To explain my point, if you are building rapport and concentrating on doing it, your not in it. When your thinking about what to do next , your not in a rapport state that will guide you via your UC.
This is frightening to some people who want the answers up front and don't like to work in real time on the fly.
Its the same with presenting training. There are some who need everything scripted out before hand and others who just get up and let it come out as it comes. I have done both and I found the former for me to stifled and the second prone to going off track easily but far more inspiring. The best seems to be a combination of a loose process and the courage to just go for it and see what happens.
Applying this same process to therapy seems to have produced excellent results but I could not have done this before a certain level of pre- determined experience at conscious competence. I guess what I'm alluding to is experience changes the way we work. If we are conscious of trying new ways of working and realizing that we can achieve different things at different levels of experience then thats a good thing. But I think many people either do not get to more experienced levels because of lack of practice or they do get the experience but become locked into their way of working and it has not occurred to them that they could do things another way.

Could I ask you for clarification as to what you intended about approaches?

Thanks
Peter

NinaM wrote:

My first meeting with him tomorrow (and mum)

Is she necessary? If not absolutely required, I'd have her sit in the waiting room.

I am well into strategies now and will elicit his swollowing hesitation strategy.

I'm not sure I'd worry about his strategies. The problem is active before he puts food in his mouth.

I also plan to work on beliefs and belief change. Chunking up to get higher intention for behaviour and applying not-not language patterns.

It looks like a decision to me, based only on what you've written.

The mum believes it was because his dad told him over lunch he was having a sister and was getting remarried and that is when it started. (I'm not taking her word for it)

That's good. It's possible that she's looking for a way to blame his dad.

If that's the case, though, it may be an issue of control... a "You're not about to cram this down my throat" response. You won't know until you poke around a bit. Find out when he last swallowed comfortably, when he first couldn't, and what happened between those two events.

That's the main reason I wouldn't want Mum in the room. She'd likely want to add her colors to the painting.

That made it sound like a one-time learned behaviour (which would resemeble phobia) but the fear associated with phobia is not there - there is just the behaviour.

Would the same principles still apply?

I don't know. it doesn't feel right, though.

I had a friend who had problems around food. She told me once that her parents' favorite place to argue was at the dinner table. She found that if she payed enough attention to the food, it felt as if the arguments didn't scare her. She realized later, though, that she "swallowed a lot of anger". Her speech was filled with gustatory predicates. I've lost track of her, but last I saw her she'd lost quite a bit of weight, and she'd put some back on after having some difficult situations in her life.

Like Peter said, you don't know anything until you've talked to him, so anything you get here will be pure speculation. Please stay open; it could be absolutely anything.

Oh, and find out what the other four NLP practitioners did. That'll give you a good idea of what to avoid doing.

Peter your response is exactly what I was asking about in terms of "approach" rather than technique. When I am just in the room (as in not there) I do do my best work. And I am going to borrow your appproach tomorrow and see how it works for me :0)

Yet trusting my uc I feel I need to be "awake" to be wary of what may be projections.

I seek utmost elegance and perfection of techniques which then become unconscious and forgotten to be remembered is my way towards elegance. I do run a pattern that demands perfection. Still, I am always surprised in trainings when I see one technique done in 30 different ways and still works! I guess if I had my way I would like to specify the degree of the angle that hands need to be at for a perfect parts integration! And then the universe sends me a client with parts with a semi-paralysed arm... it worked a treat of course!

So I am gonna drop my normal stuff and just be there (in the way of not being there)

Thanks Michael - As to the mum being there, I know whose mind I am working with. Her being there (for 15 min) will allow them to play out hteir dynamics and I can pick up a lot of info from that.

I do feel like I might have a can of worms in front of me and a can-opener in my hand....

My initial reaction is that when a parent brings a child to therapy.. who really needs the change ...? nevertheless that might be my projections ...
I am going to borrow Peters approah and if there is interest I will report back after. Thanks! :0)

Rock and Roll
see you on the other side of the rabbit hole

Peter

NinaM wrote:

I am going to borrow your appproach tomorrow and see how it works for me :0)

I'm very curious as to how it's turned out.

Okay that was something I was wondering about if there was interest to follow up how it went.
I borrowed Peter's approach and I was given some interesting confusions to work with.
Will write more soon but have client in ten minutes so back soon
Nina
www.ninamadden.com

NinaM wrote:

Okay that was something I was wondering about if there was interest to follow up how it went.

We're NLPers; curiosity is what we do.

www.ninamadden.com

I loved your client's description of you as "a typhoon of fresh air".

Thank you Michael - isn't it great! :0)

So with the boy I was in deliberation - I arrived at an intereseting fork in the path, quite early on which may open up some interesting discussions...

Right - so the fork in the path - a great sign saying "responisibility for results" ... pointing one way "power of belief in authority figure" the other way...

How are you going to know it's gone? Becasue you will tell me, and I will have had treatment was the answer.

I was wondering wether to use the desire for an authority figure in my favour in order to get the desired results, after interventions doing a quick trance to integrate changes... "it't gone because you have had treatment and I told you so" or to put it back onto the client - "only you will make the change inside, nobody can do it for you, becasue I tell you so" which is kind of what I did, because I had a hunch that this might be what had brought him back four times... pushing off responsibility for the expression of what he wanted to express... in the end I did swish, strategy elicitation and Bandlers temp-agency, to break up the sequence and I also did time-line therapy, first event which brought up something which made me think there was an earlier event - he felt a tap on his arm...

In retrospect I know exactly what the trigger was "am I supposed to swallow that" and could have done a guided fantasy to explore the expression of the solution in the future, in the rep systems, and metamodelling that to get a full representation... I think that would have had great results in general.

There is something missing from my own approach to these types of "one-offs" that I haven't entirely figured out yet. I think its the idea that a problem can be solved in one session... which of course it can... but

I haven't incorporated a feedback loop with my one-offs yet. How do you guys do it? I am considering offering a guarantee (two sessions or three sessions) as this would ensure they come back if they haven't got the results, put my mind at rest, and also ensure that I only have happy customers out there.

This is playing out my own problem - which is I am a five time convincer and not convinced the changes are complete until I have some sort of proof five times. This gives me a hard time in this job.

How do you guys do it?

The other problem I have is that it is so easy, almost to easy, I feel sometimes you could just do an intervention and the whole thing would be gone in ten minutes. This has happened a few times and what do you do then? Hypnosis to integrate and make people feel they got value for money? I get the feeling that sometimes they come in with "huge" problems I do an intervention, then they think "well, my problem couldn't have been that big after all". I want to shout - YES IT WAS! But then that wouldn't be very befitting a therapist now, would it ;0)

Nina
www.ninamadden.com

You "are" a five time convincer? Interesting... I wonder, and you can too if you like , how you arranged your perceptions in the past to convince yourself that was true for you. And I can't help but be curious about this, too: How would you know if that were not true now? And how do you feel about knowing that can all change for you beginning right now...

A nice trance rounds things off, fits into the need for a bit of ritual and a reason for the change to have occurred and continued, and sends them out feeling good about themselves and you. It's fun to knock a change off in ten minutes. but I know what you mean about that reaction to a fast and easy change. Hypnosis can be a great convincer that there's a reason for the change, something they can sort of understand caused it, and it will last.

This reminds of a dictum of nonfiction writing: "Tell 'em what you're gonna tell 'em, tell 'em, then tell 'em what you told 'em". Preframe (do the work), do the "work" (do the work), and convince them you did the work.

NinaM wrote:

So with the boy I was in deliberation - I arrived at an intereseting fork in the path, quite early on which may open up some interesting discussions...

I'm gathering that you took the one less traveled.

Right - so the fork in the path - a great sign saying "responisibility for results" ... pointing one way "power of belief in authority figure" the other way...

A nice opportunity for a double-bind.

first event which brought up something which made me think there was an earlier event - he felt a tap on his arm...

Interesting. That tap on the arm may have been something that took place in his life just before he reached threshhold. If that's the case -- and I don't know, mind you -- it might be smart to bring him back and resolve that. Otherwise, he's right where he was: waiting for that final straw.

I haven't incorporated a feedback loop with my one-offs yet. How do you guys do it? I am considering offering a guarantee (two sessions or three sessions) as this would ensure they come back if they haven't got the results, put my mind at rest, and also ensure that I only have happy customers out there.

Test your work. Take the kid out for pizza. Just the two of you, you cradle-robber.

Future-pacing is handy for this, as is the idea of building failure into the process.

This is playing out my own problem - which is I am a five time convincer and not convinced the changes are complete until I have some sort of proof five times. This gives me a hard time in this job.

There's nothing wrong with your convincer strategy. Perhaps what you might consider changing is that of which you want to be convinced. Essentially, I want to be convinced that they intend to go out and convince themselves that it worked.

The other problem I have is that it is so easy, almost to easy, I feel sometimes you could just do an intervention and the whole thing would be gone in ten minutes. This has happened a few times and what do you do then?

I like to take my time, gather a lot of information, and let them talk. I also like to work with things surrounding the issue, too. Teach a smoker how to respond to stress and to peer pressure, for example.

"well, my problem couldn't have been that big after all". I want to shout - YES IT WAS! But then that wouldn't be very befitting a therapist now, would it ;0)

There's a big difference between "simple" and "easy".

I have Just read the thread and am new to this site. I was wondering if you could have utilised the fact he eats chocolate as when does chocalate stop being chocalate and become something else, eg from bar - bar with nuts , chocolatecake, chocolate covered cake, chocolate covered nuts, covered fruit I think you get the idea.

Just a thought.

As it turned out it was only liquids - but that is besides the point - the point is that there was a rejection to a message "am I supposed to swallow that" and a lack of willingness to resolve the underlying issue - just do the treatment (so I don't have to deal with the real problem of telling someone something... ) and the guided fantasy I believe where the underlying issue could have been resolved in the mind through rep systems, it being okay, I believe would have had the most far reaching beneficial effects on the persons life and ability to handle other such similar situations - as in it is okay to express rejection to a message that you don't want to hear, it is okay to feel and express feelings relating to that message.

A note - we did future pacing three times, and he could not get the problem back - he couldn;t do it in the future pace - yet he still turned to me to ask me if the problem was gone (?) here is where my confusion came in, and writing this actually illustrates me doing my convincer and him asking for his convincer (you tell me that is how I know) ... hmmm... I think I just had an aha moment...

This was just about convincer wasn't it... not about the acutal changework...?

In terms of my own convincing I just want to know that the change has been done.

I should have brought him for a pizza. :0)

PS I will use the tell em, do it, tell em, and then hypnosis to integrate and its cool and makes us feel good :0)

NinaM wrote:

As it turned out it was only liquids

He could only swallow liquids, or could only not-swallow liquids? Just curious.

A note - we did future pacing three times, and he could not get the problem back - he couldn;t do it in the future pace - yet he still turned to me to ask me if the problem was gone (?) here is where my confusion came in, and writing this actually illustrates me doing my convincer and him asking for his convincer (you tell me that is how I know) ...

I'd have just asked him how he'd know that it has worked, and then make happen whatever that might be.

hmmm... I think I just had an aha moment... This was just about convincer wasn't it... not about the acutal changework...?

Well... the convincer is an important part of the work, I think...

In terms of my convincing - I only want one thing. I don't care if they believe it or not - I just want to know that the change has been done. When it really has been done you can't act in contradiction to the change.

That'll make it tougher for you to feel comfortable with the end of the session, then, unless you're fastidious about follow-ups.

Example my friend played with me and did like to dislike with beer. I love beer! No matter though, everytime I think of it I feel disguisted - it won't pass my lips now. It's really annoying!

Damned phonological ambiguities. He meant "bier". It's perfectly normal and healthy to dislike those.

Quote:
I'd have just asked him how he'd know that it has worked, and then make happen whatever that might be.

That is what I did... I asked him, and his answer was me telling him/ having had treatment... get it...? hence the thing about convincers....


Quote:
In terms of my convincing - I only want one thing. I don't care if they believe it or not - I just want to know that the change has been done. When it really has been done you can't act in contradiction to the change

That'll make it tougher for you to feel comfortable with the end of the session, then, unless you're fastidious about follow-ups.

Yes.

With Breakthrough Sessions I provide three months coaching as part of it - allowing me to be sure ... and likewise with my clients who receive regular coaching/ nlp work.

These one-offs I might have to set up something different ...

Nina
www.ninamadden.com

NinaM wrote:

That is what I did... I asked him, and his answer was me telling him/ having had treatment... get it...? hence the thing about convincers....

Ah. Odd. Seems to me that the previous four attempts would have ended the same way. Could he have been looking for a way to avoid responsibility for the change?

Yes of course, this is exactly my point this is kind of what I was trying to say in my very first post. He looked for the "treatment" so he didn't have to deal with the real issues. "Treat me, and have it be gone."

For that reason I used time-line on the original event - to get him to experience himself as a participant of the event, the learnings and a larger perspective - and that is why I thought a guided fantasy through the future, playing out taking responsibility for the underlying issues and being an active participant in the future events and their direction, and this being okay would have had great overall effect.

BUT - taking into account his age, etc, his convincer was (which makes sense) an authority figure telling him he has had treatment so it is now gone. The thing for him is moving from passive to active participant and thereby having more control... anyway