Hi all,

Let me start by saying that i have no views one way or the other on this subject. I am just interested in 'what the panel thinks'

12 months ago, if you went to any employment site (monster, gojobs, etc) and typed NLP into the job criteria or search engine you would have come up with a big zilch, nothing, nadda !

However,

Try it out today, more and more businesses are 'recognising' NLP and actually placing NLP as part of the 'competencies' for job roles ( I have copied a couple of examples into the 'situations vacant' thread on NLP Connections.

My question is this (just out of interest) :

NLP - Lets go mainstream, or, lets keep it a dark art ?

As i said, i have no views either way, just interested in what the panel think.

Cheers,

Mark

Hi Mark,

Well certainly trainers would love mainstream as it can enhance their sales, I think though if everyone knew NLP tactics the public would be able to recognise the language patterns and behaviours of NLP practitioners. I used NLP to enhance my sales and when I was being presented an offer into a franchise I was thinking of buying, the salesmen used my name about once a minute for the entire 3 hour presentation!!! Now obviously he was excessive, but if he had done it a little more than usual I would have seen them anyway. I certainly don't want to go into every shop and be asked "can you remember the last time you had a bargain, can you FEEL THAT NOW???"

ATB,
Jon

I quite like the idea of NLP being considered a dark art but I also think there are many benefits to brightening up the picture so more people can see it clearly.

That's what Paul McKenna and his team did, essentially. They took something that very few people were doing and simplified it so that now pretty much anyone can grasp the most basic ideas very quickly.

More people are talking about it, more people are doing it, more people are showing their friends and colleagues that it works.

I guess that means that more businesses are starting to be more explicit about it too. They used to say they wanted people with good rapport and sales skills; now they mention NLP alongside that.

Overall I think it's very positive that more people and more businesses are recognising and promoting NLP. My only concern is that a lot of people now think NLP isn't much more than simple rapport and sales skills, maybe with a swish pattern or two from time to time. And that's a shame because NLP actually has much more potential than that. As we move into the future and if this trend continues, I suspect that many of the most talented NLPers and especially NLP developers will soon not want to say they do 'just' NLP, because NLP will be seen as this simple thing than anyone can master in a few days. We'll get even more re-labelling of the advanced techniques and concepts, more new acronyms, more disputes about who owns what...

But that's evolution I suppose, and there are benefits to that too.

It must be weird for Bandler and Grinder to look at NLP now and remember how the two of them started out with it just a few decades ago.

Mainstream or dark art - I don't really mind - it only works well when it's congruent for both user and receiving person whichever way it goes. My original training was largely 'dark arts' and NLP is a recent addition for me - but I find if you're open about what you're doing and what you use, people only tend to hear what they want to anyway... well consciously anyway...

...the nominalization of NLP...
...now there's a thing...

I always think of NLP as a mutating virus that has spread into all media already. We have no control over who has access to it and where it goes any more...

Those that consciously use it as a this or that 'technique' / therapy / communication tool etc etc are just compartmentalizing something that actually has unlimited potential...



...the human mind that is...



...did you think I was going to say NLP? :cool:

I wonder how it may affect earning potential (long term)

Being an old git, i can remember when IT first burst onto the scene, anyone who new anything about this new fangled 'science' could earn up to the dizzy heights of £12.000.00 PA (a frighteningly large amount of money in the mid 70's) here we are 30 years later and earning potential in IT has actualy dropped to those levels again (in some areas)

Could NLP be heading in the same direction ?..i dunno, just asking what the panel thinks

Cheers,

Mark

I think 'earning potential' is a reflection of the person, how they think and what they do. Compare Bandler or McKenna's earnings with Joe Bloggs your local NLP therapist or trainer. How much you can earn from NLP is more about how much imagination and creativity you have for what you do with it...
There will always be people who want NLP training and anyway, for me, a more competitive market is a good thing because I simply can't afford the prices people charge for NLP courses right now anyway!

marksherwood wrote:

I wonder how it may affect earning potential (long term)

Being an old git, i can remember when IT first burst onto the scene, anyone who new anything about this new fangled 'science' could earn up to the dizzy heights of £12.000.00 PA (a frighteningly large amount of money in the mid 70's) here we are 30 years later and earning potential in IT has actualy dropped to those levels again (in some areas)

Could NLP be heading in the same direcstion ?

There are some pretty good NLP trainers who earn less than £12,000 a year from NLP training. It's a really competitive industry in the UK.

On the other hand, a few really good trainers are out there earning £12,000 per day. Those are typically the ones who evolve ideas and develop new ideas.

To relate it to the IT analogy, I think how much you can earn teaching NLP is largely influenced by whether you are showing people how to use an existing software package, customising and developing extra modules to meet their needs, writing new software to do new things, or writing whole new operating systems to look at the world in whole new ways. The more you can do and the more flexibility you have, the more value you can deliver and the more you're going to get paid.

Hopefully we'll soon start to see more focus on applying NLP to other things too. The current trend for so many people to discover NLP and then give up their job to become either an NLP coach or an NLP trainer is unsustainable. Learning NLP to teach NLP so that more people can learn NLP to teach NLP... I don't think that's really such a great idea. Learning NLP to become a better and more successful doctor, teacher, artist, software designer... whatever... that's where I think the potential lies in the future.

Okeydokey,

Can anyone see a day in the not too distant future when businesses / organisations have their own 'in-house' NLP specialists / trainers/ consultants ?

And if they can see this day,

Is there not a danger of NLP becoming 'watered down' ?

Specialist get payed a lot more than employees...dont they ?

Specialists deliver higher quality material than employees dont they ?

Like i said in the earlier post, i dunno, just wondering

Cheers,

Mark

Well Mark,

A large number of buisnesses in Mexico hire NLP "specialists" as consultants now a days. "Specialists" who are offering a very watered down NLP by the way.
Some have never studied any NLP!!! Some just read a book or two but since it is somewhat of a trend here.... well you can imagine the rest. Unfortunatelly some businesses are now starting to shut down the door to NLP because of those consultants.

There are NLP consultants in Mexico earning from $200 dlls a day to over $3,000 dlls a day.

Unfortunately watering down is an understatement. A lot of people here think NLP = The Secret. That is, think positive (sure have well-formed outcomes) and you'll get it as a result of the law of attraction (and the uncosncious mind doing whatever needed once you have a goal). No language skills taught, no knowledge of how the mind works (decision strategies, motivation startegies, learning strategies, etc)....

And as a result of this, several intellectuals, several researchers, several reporters and many more are having a blast labeling NLP as a scam.

Just recently Mexico lost the chance of having our football team at the olympic games. They lost to Guatemala!!!! Firt time ever.

Sad thing is they all got NLP trained by the bozos who think visualize your goal and it will happen. Fuck the tactical work, fuck the good team work, fuck the actual skills... just visualize it and it will happen. yeah right!!!!!

Now our football team will watch the games on TV.

gabe wrote:

Well Mark,

A large number of buisnesses in Mexico hire NLP "specialists" as consultants now a days. "Specialists" who are offering a very watered down NLP by the way.
Some have never studied any NLP!!! Some just read a book or two but since it is somewhat of a trend here.... well you can imagine the rest. Unfortunatelly some businesses are now starting to shut down the door to NLP because of those consultants.

There are NLP consultants in Mexico earning from $200 dlls a day to over $3,000 dlls a day.

Unfortunately watering down is an understatement. A lot of people here think NLP = The Secret. That is, think positive (sure have well-formed outcomes) and you'll get it as a result of the law of attraction (and the uncosncious mind doing whatever needed once you have a goal). No language skills taught, no knowledge of how the mind works (decision strategies, motivation startegies, learning strategies, etc)....

And as a result of this, several intellectuals, several researchers, several reporters and many more are having a blast labeling NLP as a scam.

Although i have stated that i dont have a view either way, if i did decide to have a view, what Gabe has outlined would be about it !

Cheers,

Mark

P.S. - Gabe, i have sent a friend request to you on facebook.

chris_morris wrote:

There are some pretty good NLP trainers who earn less than £12,000 a year from NLP training. It's a really competitive industry in the UK.

On the other hand, a few really good trainers are out there earning £12,000 per day. Those are typically the ones who evolve ideas and develop new ideas.

Agreed Chris, but i am not necesserilly talking about training or teaching.

NLP is being mentioned in job specs just under 'Must have experience of microsoft packages'...or thereabouts, and look how diluted PC skills have become compared to a few years ago.

Like i said, i have no views either way, just wondered what the panel thinks.

Cheers,

Mark

NLP is also an acronym for Natural Language Programming. It's a computer language.

I remember talking to an IT colleague, talking from my perspective of NLP, having done practitioner, and he was talking from his perspective of Natural language, and we carried on a conversation, talking on two different themes while each of us thinking ( i guess), that we were sharing experience of Natural Language Processing...bit strange?

Ron_Hudson wrote:

NLP is also an acronym Natural Language Programming. It's a computer language.

Not quite accurate. The NLP you refer to is "Natural Language PROCESSING", not programming, and it's not a computer language. It's a subfield of computer science devoted to training computers how to understand spoken language.

Here are some of the most obvious/visible (or audible!) examples of how Natural Language Processing has (arguably) improved our daily lives, or at least, helped shave manpower costs(!):

1) Cellphones recognizing spoken commands

2) New cars' control consoles recognizing spoken commands for navigation, integrated mobile phones, temperature control, & more.

3) Call Centers (Help-Desks), like airline automated help lines, or computer software help centers, etc., for recognizing your questions.


All of these areas of industry have emerged thanks to advances in NLP (Natural Language Processing).

And while my background up to 11 years ago was in Artificial Intelligence, no, I did not do any work with Natural Language Processing. I did have some associates involved in that field, but my expertise was in intelligent decision systems & modeling.

Regards,

- Jonathan Altfeld

May I add that this was done with complete rapport.

Sorry, i'm boring myself now

Have a good weekend everyone


Kev

okay, okay, i wasn't completely wrong. i knew it had something to do with computers.

Ron_Hudson wrote:

NLP is also an acronym for Natural Language Programming. It's a computer language.

Thanks for that,

But the NLP i am talking about is the NLP we all know and love. Most of the job specs that mention NLP are HR or Training related.

Maybe we will all look back someday and think fondly of the times when only a few hundred thousand of us knew anything about NLP ?

Cheers,

Mark

Just found another one....blimey, its getting everywhere !

IT Trainer (E-learning, MOS, MMI, Tutor Pro, Capture Station). IT Trainer required by a leading 1000 user international law firm. They are currently introducing a new E-learning and cutting edge training delivery tools including online training systems (Tutor Pro, OnDemand) and 'real time' solutions such as training Podcasts, Captivate, Capture Station, to name a few. In this Lead role, you will be responsible for defining new E-learning techniques and training strategy across the firm globally. This is an ideal role for a candidate with a particular interest in Neuro Linguistic Programming (NLP) as you will be required to develop a set of practices and techniques, based on these principles, in order to increase the efficiency of knowledge transfer and define course structures to best achieve this. Candidates who are MOS and/or MMI certified will have an advantage as the firm are also looking for the ideal person to scope and design the course structure for delivering Microsoft Office Specialist accredited learning programmes throughout the organisation. Ideally you will have previous experience with TutorPro or other similar E-learning packages and act as the point of contact for E-learning expertise within the firm. This is an excellent opportunity for an IT Trainer to get involved in challenging projects, cutting edge training products, and act as the Lead Author for learning material in a highly progressive, dynamic environment.

Cheers,

Mark

First of all... no need to fear NLP be being waterd down.. it has already.

And I find it funny that people that are interested in expanding their minds and their ways of doing things are incapable of thinking out the side the box when it comes to this 'industry'.

Do people really think that the only way to provide value with NLP is by holding NLP Prac and Master Prac trainings? Cause that's the impression I get... that a lot of people get into NLP so that they can teach other people NLP for loadsa money!!!

Like Chris said, peple will want to differentiate themselves and will come up with new labels for what they are doing anyway; DHE, NAC, NHP etc etc.