What about self forgiveness? I think that it is great to release the negative energy, if that is what you want to call it, and forgive someone and yet not forgive ourselves.

This was evident last night when my partner got home , she was fuming and extremely agitated because of her daughter's self centered behaviour. Her daughter has ADD, and at times is totally unaware of the bigger picture, how her actions affects others, it is as if she lives in her own world and acts accordingly. She forgives her daughter, yet berates herself.

For example, she will ask if I can fix her car, makes the arrangements to be there early afternoon, remembers she needs to do her washing and clean her room and visit some friends. She packs the washing up, cleans her room, visits her friends, the arrives at night to do the washing and fix the car, four hours have lapsed and it is now night time. To her, all is fine, it is only when it is explained that finding the problem with her car and fixing it in the dark is considerably harder and that now is an inconvienient time to do it.

There are numerous examples of this pattern where she does not consider the bigger picture and how she impacts on others. She is very intelligent, caring, appologetic and tries her hardest, then goes off into her own reality and forgets. My partner's map of reality is that she can either let her daughter fail and go into a depression, or forgive her and take up the slack.

In my experience, you can forgive and accept that a person does not know better or could not help themselves and forgive them.... then go onto berate yourself for not doing more or for allowing the situation to affect you negatively.

Have a great day

anony67 wrote:

Interesting, so intention matters...

If you think it does, Sam, then I guess it does... for you anyway!

MY intention was a humorous scenario of a hypothetical (somewhat humanised perhaps?) dog expressing spite against a human being - something I have never experienced in a dog (and only suspected in cats during my more paranoid moments...) - where I then flipped back to what I do know of dogs, that they are generally more honest and genuine than most human beings I've met... in which case the 'victim' would definitely 'deserve it' because dogs don't lie... well sleeping ones do if you let them...

In any case I would always side with the dog

Frederic,
I think self-forgiveness is vital to avoid cycles of blame. Your partner may be acting out of the infamous 'drama triangle' (rescuer - victim - persecutor) in which case honest / genuine forgiveness is not really happening at all... in my opinion of course!

:s

Tranquil_Lotus wrote:

What about self forgiveness? I think that it is great to release the negative energy, if that is what you want to call it, and forgive someone and yet not forgive ourselves.

I'm about to share a very personal story about self forgiveness, just because I think it may be useful in emphasizing the importance of this.

About a year ago I chose to have an elective surgery which I believed would greatly improve the quality of my life.

Part of the surgery went awry. The result was a necessary re-op in December of 2007, with a lengthy, painful recovery. Psychologically, I felt torn apart, even more than physically.

Discovering NLP helped to save my life. Literally.

Over the last two months, with the help of an amazing Ericksonian therapist, I have been able to forgive myself, as well as all the other professionals I entrusted myself to, and the resulting change in my life is now enormous. I cannot even begin to say how many other areas in my life had been affected by this single issue.

When I reached the point where I was ready to let go of the pain, anger and unforgiveness, I am extremely grateful that the right person was there at the right time to gently guide me through it. The result is that now the world seems like a completely different place for me, and I each day is better than the last.

I urge everyone to not underestimate the power of releasing unforgiveness. It can change your life.

Phil

It is always nice to see people genuinely sharing their personal experiences and knowledge with others. Something, I have observed many people freely doing on NLP Connections. Thank You for sharing.

BTW Phil, would you mind sharing the recipe for the fresh berry tart, it looks wonderful.

Have a great day .

Frederic

Nigel Adams wrote:

expressing spite against a human being - something I have never experienced in a dog (and only suspected in cats during my more paranoid moments...)

That isn't paranoia. Cats dislike the smell of their own feces, so if they drop one in the middle of the room, you can bet they're trying to communicate something.

Nigel

I think self-forgiveness is vital to avoid cycles of blame. Your partner may be acting out of the infamous 'drama triangle' (rescuer - victim - persecutor) in which case honest / genuine forgiveness is not really happening at all... in my opinion of course!

You may well be correct, though in her view she is genuinely forgiving her daughter and trying to help her. Thanks for the info too, I have never heard of the drama triangle before.

It seems to me that Forgiveness is about something we do to other people with taints of Christianity lurking in the background as well and I have always (yes, since I was born) been sceptical of why how useful this is.

I agree with MDB's approach to this and Steve Andreas (see link) which to me addresses the issues the individual is having RIGHT NOW in a more effective way.

So if we are looking at it from these perspectives have we not moved away from the concept of Forgiveness to something else, just simple healing if you like.

Of course this does depend on what you understand by the term Forgiveness and all the things that are wrapped up in it and I am sure Nigel will tell us what Forgiveness means to a Buddhist, reawakening or something I expect.

John

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts

Tranquil_Lotus wrote:

Nigel


You may well be correct, though in her view she is genuinely forgiving her daughter and trying to help her. Thanks for the info too, I have never heard of the drama triangle before.

The 'Drama Triangle' is an extremely neat little model for certain human behaviours that we can all get caught up in at times - it is most commonly associated with Transactional Analysis, but doesn't imply you have to adopt all the ideas of TA, it works perfectly well without, so long as you recognise people don't actually stay in any one position on it usually and that the 'identification' with the three positions does not constitute a genuine 'identity' if you get what I mean?

Lynne Forrest: The Three Faces of Victim

Coaching Supervison - Karpman Drama Triangle

Karpman drama triangle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I find it extremely useful and use it as a 'reality check' for daily client dilemmas and for my own behaviour, it's a useful model...

For some great drama triangle behaviour, check out the current "thumbs" threads on here and any of my own more unfortunate interactions with Jon...

The only solution to drama triangle dynamics I have found, is to expose it and STOP doing it!

:cool:

Nigel,

Very helpful--thank you for sharing.

Please note...I gave a personal thanks, and NOT a "thumbs up," which from now on will be my quick mode of affirming a post.

Cheers,

Phil

pcadams wrote:

Nigel,

Very helpful--thank you for sharing.

Please note...I gave a personal thanks, and NOT a "thumbs up," which from now on will be my quick mode of affirming a post.

Cheers,

Phil

You're most welcome Phil!

*(Please note, I gave you a thumbs up AND a personal response as well!
...now do I hear thumbs up, personal response AND pie?
...or shall we just stop this before it gets really silly... or will we go the way we usually do and damn the humourless critics...?!)

In any case, whatever the outcome and whoever is involved - I forgive you!!

Nigel Adams wrote:

You're most welcome Phil!

*(Please note, I gave you a thumbs up AND a personal response as well!
...now do I hear thumbs up, personal response AND pie?
...or shall we just stop this before it gets really silly... or will we go the way we usually do and damn the humourless critics...?!)

In any case, whatever the outcome and whoever is involved - I forgive you!!

No pie, Nigel, but if you come to my home this evening, I will gladly give you a piece of La Reine de Saba. Check out my blog for a complete blow by blow of its construction, with picture and soundtrack!

Cheers,

Phil

I am beginning to believe more and more its not about forgiving someone, but more about dealing with your own reactions to what you have seen in their behaviour.


Just my two p worth

Nina

That's insightful, Nina...

Phil

Thanks for the links Nigel.

Michael_DeBusk wrote:

I think you've hit it in a nutshell. As we're social creatures down to our cores, holding a grudge is an "unnatural" (if you will) state, and it drains our energy. It also tilts our map-making skills, causing us to delete, distort, and generalize inappropriately... making us stupider, in effect.

As the saying goes, "Forgiveness is a gift we give ourselves."

So conversely, forgiveness can form part of an overall intelligence strategy? I like it:cool:

It's the smart move! :cool:

adamsargant wrote:

So conversely, forgiveness can form part of an overall intelligence strategy? I like it:cool:

Perhaps we should call it "enlightening self-interest."

Michael_DeBusk wrote:

Perhaps we should call it "enlightening self-interest."

...or perhaps some sort of enlightening that connects us to an interest greater than ourselves...

Cheers,

Phil

What patterns would you use to do it?

anony67 wrote:

What patterns would you use to do it?

Patterns?