The Skeptic's Dictionary

Read all the article by Greenfield at Knol, others should read it also. Throwing NLP in with Scientology & EST is harsh and simply not true!

But agreed NLP has not been successfully scientifically tested.

What is always odd is that these kind of people and articles do not recommend any alternatives that claim or actually can achieve results as fast as NLP & treat the same problems.

Get Paul Mckenna or Richard Bandler against a top Psycotherapist (trained in Psychology or Psychiatry or both) and get them to treat people with a variety of conditions - low self esteem/low confidence, food addictions, phobias, etc. Treating people neither have met before, just going by case study/files and/or pre phone interview.

Film it all, then lets see who gets the better results?

The usual problem is that the more we do based on a belief, the more emotional investment we have in maintaining it (the consistency principle). Supposing you have invested a lot of time and money, convinced your friends etc, we are emotionally invested and unwilling to back down. It took a lot for Karla McLaren to come to terms with this after being a new-age teacher and author for most of her adult life but I respect her for being willing to question that which she held most dear, part of her identity and had invested a great deal of her life in. That is some "letting go" if you ask me that few would willing to undertake..

Good stuff as ever John.

I think for me doing stuff based on belief is OK, it's the way we are built. I am not sure you could stop it anyway.

However re framing what you have put into it as something other than an investment might be more useful.

Investments by definition require a return. It can sometimes take a lot to let go of an investment when it is not delivering as you say.

I am often intrigued, but not surprised, when I hear about people unwilling to give up on a broken relationship because they perceive that all the years they were with that partner as being wasted.

The past has absolutely NO value other than what it can do to affect present state.

John

Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest

Hi Peter,

Get Paul Mckenna or Richard Bandler against a top Psycotherapist (trained in Psychology or Psychiatry or both) and get them to treat people with a variety of conditions - low self esteem/low confidence, food addictions, phobias, etc. Treating people neither have met before, just going by case study/files and/or pre phone interview.

Film it all, then lets see who gets the better results?

First of all, this would be testing the application of NLP in the context of therapy, not NLP. NLP isn't therapy.

But assuming you did want to do that, the test you describe, while possibly entertaining, is not the sort of double blind, peer-reviewed test which would be considered to be proof of the efficacy of applications of NLP in these specific cases.

And the need for peer review means that the procedure must be reproducible by the critics. Good luck getting them to do or even comprehend what Bandler did...

What you suggest would be considered at the level of case studies. There are plenty of those already and those hold no weight with sceptics (anecdotal evidence!).

And, as I've mentioned many times here on the forum, the NLP Research and Recognition program is working on creating and funding properly designed studies to support the claims of NLP. They're not doing it the way I would, but at least they're doing omething they think is valuable and I commend them for their efforts.

Anyone who values this sort of thing might wish to consider contributing to their effort.

Be Well,

Michael Perez

Michael,

Putting Bandler or Mckenna against a top Psychotherapist to treat people, and film results was not suggesting it would be a serious scientific study, just that it would be interesting.

Psychiatry & Psychology with NO drugs used, cannot treat problems fast, they may well know causes or think they do, but they cannot actually do anything about it quickly. I'm confident Mckenna or Bandler would get better results and much faster too.

Despite their claims if you look at the history of Psychiatry or Psychology, it is not especially 'scientific', far from it actually.

As for you saying NLP is not therapy, many say it is or interlink the two:

NLP Therapy - NLP Counselling

index

Home Page

Karen Hastings, Occupational Therapy, CBT, Hypnotherapy, NLP, Edinburgh 'NLP is an intimidating name for what is common sense, practical asnd effective therapy'

many say it is or interlink the two

"many say?" That's a bit of an ambiguous statement. Who are these, many? Are they considered to be in a position where such a statement can actually be taken seriously?

I've heard both co-founders of NLP say that NLP is not therapy and I've yet to encounter any trainer making that claim.

If you consider homepages made for business purposes, by NLP practitioners who's never been heard of a trustworthy source of information, I can show you homepages which link NLP with scientology, kabbalah and a host of other celebrity religions.

Damian,

It's blatantly obvious you don't know what you are talking about :-

Therapeutic use of Neuro-linguistic programming - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is not therapy yet the founders of NLP took the time to study very indepth 3 therapists (actually more) Erickson/Satir/Perls, and from the models they developed techniques to help people?

So if you help someone with speech problems using NLP and it is not therapy, what is it exactly and why is it not therapy? :-

therapy - Definitions from Dictionary.com


NLP is not only used to help people with phobias, physical conditions, irrational fears, stress, etc of course but to say it is definitely not therapy, when a psychotherapist, psychologist, or psychiatrist treats the same conditions albeit in a different manner is just semantics.

Paul Mckenna treats people on his 'I Can Change Your Life' programme (available on Youtube, etc) he treats people with cleaning phobias, public speaking fears, eating disorders, depression, appearance complexes, driving fears, etc. Yet that is NOT therapy according to you? But a psychotherapist treating exactly the same problems IS doing therapy? Makes a lot of sense!

Peter,

I still stand by what I wrote: NLP is not therapy. NLP is so much more. NLP can be used, and in my opinion is very efficiently used within the context of therapy. However, it's not a form of therapy.

If NLP is indeed therapy, how come both co-founders shake their head in disbelief whenever someone makes that claim? If you cannot name one credible source saying that NLP is therapy, can we atleast agree that it's your and your interpretation alone of what NLP really is? Cause as I stated, I have yet to encounter any trainer making that claim. And so far you haven't mentioned a single one other than your belief based on what Paul Mckenna does on a TV show.

Damian,

Scroll down a little and read the quote by Richard Bandler about the owner of this website Chris Morris :
http://www.chrismorris.com/ 'one of the few therapeutic specialists.....'

You cannot make the distinction between what is therapy and what is not, so why don't you at least try to make yourself look slightly credible and attempt to do so in your next post?

YouTube - Paul Mckenna - I can change your life - Programme 1

Tell me what is the difference between what Paul Mckenna is trying to achieve with patients/clients there, and what any Therapist is trying to do? They are both working to help & hopefully cure the person, yet you will tell me one is not doing any form of therapy, and the other one is? Makes complete sense, doesn't it.

NLP is not just therapy, but to say categorically it is not a therapy is just plain silly, someone has speech problems goes to see a Hypnotherapist or NLP Practitioner or Psychotherapist or Speech Therapist, etc they are all trying to do the same thing help the person and improve their speech, whatever means they use it is therapy.

Many that know more about NLP than yourself regard it as therapy Karen Hastings, Occupational Therapy, CBT, Hypnotherapy, NLP, Edinburgh look at opening line in NLP section.

NLP is not just therapy

Atleast we can agree on that one.

Since I explained my view on this, I'll let you keep yours together with your various statements about who I am and what I knowl.

Peter,

I still stand by what I wrote: NLP is not therapy. NLP is so much more. NLP can be used, and in my opinion is very efficiently used within the context of therapy. However, it's not a form of therapy.

If NLP is indeed therapy, how come both co-founders shake their head in disbelief whenever someone makes that claim? If you cannot name one credible source saying that NLP is therapy, can we atleast agree that it's your and your interpretation alone of what NLP really is? Cause as I stated, I have yet to encounter any trainer making that claim. And so far you haven't mentioned a single one other than your belief based on what Paul Mckenna does on a TV show.

I have met many people who confuse NLP with its products. Some people experience the applications of NLP (management, sports performance, therapy, education, trading, negotiation...) and assume that the application that they were exposed to is NLP. NLP, building models of human excellence, is still a novel idea for many people. It has the potential to radically reorganise a person’s maps of the world. I think it is very simple for a person with minimal exposure to an application of NLP to confuse NLP with its application.

Damian ,

You stated categorically NLP is not therapy. I am saying it is but not only that, now you are saying you agree with that, nothing like changing your tune.

You failed to answer the difference betwen a Therapy such as Speech Therapy, Psychotherapy, Hypnotherapy, etc and NLP used in a therapeutic context? If you can make that distinction clearly it will explain your viewpoint far more clearly (note the keyword 'if' you have avoided doing so thus far).

Damian ,

You stated categorically NLP is not therapy. I am saying it is but not only that, now you are saying you agree with that, nothing like changing your tune.

Reread my post again. I agreed that NLP is not just therapy. Because NLP is so much more. Therapy is one of many applications that NLP can be used for. Read Chris Collingwoods post above, NLP is not its applications no matter if its therapy, education, coaching or whatever.

You failed to answer the difference betwen a Therapy such as Speech Therapy, Psychotherapy, Hypnotherapy, etc and NLP used in a therapeutic context?

I didn't fail to answer it, I chose not to because of lack of time and a hope you'd find out the answer given enough time.

There is no difference in the use between therapies and NLP used in a therapeutic context. Now, backtracking to your earlier posts:

So if you help someone with speech problems using NLP and it is not therapy, what is it exactly and why is it not therapy?

I'd call it therapy.

Paul Mckenna treats people on his 'I Can Change Your Life' programme (available on Youtube, etc) he treats people with cleaning phobias, public speaking fears, eating disorders, depression, appearance complexes, driving fears, etc. Yet that is NOT therapy according to you?

I doubt I ever mentioned Paul Mckenna in my previous posts or made any statement at all about what he does or doesn't do. That said, I'd call most (I haven't seen all episodes) of what Paul Mckenna does on his 'I Can Change Your Life' program therapy.

Tell me what is the difference between what Paul Mckenna is trying to achieve with patients/clients there, and what any Therapist is trying to do?

No difference at all.

What you've mentioned so far are all perfectly good examples of how Paul Mckenna uses NLP in a therapeutical context in one of his TV-shows. It still doesn't make NLP a therapy.

Not sure if this is written by Richard Bandler or John LaValle, nevertheless I suggest you check it out: http://www.nlpisnottherapy.com

Just because people use some of the skills of NLP,or teach some of the skills of NLP, that does not make what they are doing NLP. Period.

Hi Peter,

I'm curious about something. You seem to be suggesting that if something can be used in a therapeutic context as a way of achieving therapeutic outcomes, then that thing is therapy. Have I understood that correctly?

If this is your position, does that mean you also believe that listening to music is therapy? Or playing with animals? Every day, both of those things are used by therapists to achieve therapeutic outcomes.

I encourage people to play with my cat from time to time, and I also play music for people to listen to every now and then. Does that mean I'm a therapist?

And you do know that John and Richard have also modeled people who weren't therapists, yeah?

Cheers,

James

If you guys thought the NLP article in Wikipedia was bad, I urge you to check out the new Knol utility by Google. Go to Knol: a unit of knowledge and search for NLP.

The article by Joe Greenfield is nothing but completely horrendous, he can't even get most of his notes and references correct.

Aha! Joe Greenfield, the well-known human online virus, also calls himself Austin Yu, Krish Singh, Alex (?) Mckay and several other aliases I know of, and probably several more I don't yet know about.. He has some kind of bee in his bonnet about NLP and prowls the web posting rubbish like this.

No doubt the cavalry will arrive in due course, nudge, nudge, wink, wink.

Be well

Andy B.

Hi Peter

Is NLP therapy?

Is a hammer carpentry?

All the very best

James

Hi Peter,

Thanks for setting me straight! I had been believing the Bandler and Grinder fellows when they kept insisting it wasn't that! And then when they wrote that steaming pile of rancid feces called 'NLP Vol. I' when they and some other retards said it was a model of models or some shit like that...

Can you believe the stupidity of that Bandler idiot when he and that mouth-breather John LaValle put up http://www.nlpisnottherapy.com/? The nerve of some people, eh?

So, now that you've shown us they don't know what the hell these so called 'founders of NLP' are talking about, I'm really anxious to get shed of all their ignorant bullshit and get started on REAL NLP Therapy!

So, tossing out their moronic drivel, what have you got for us that we should do as real NLP therapy instead?!

I can't wait for your reply! This is going to be great!

Be Well,

Michael Perez

Hey, even a human virus has his uses!

At the end of his article (mainly cobbled together from Wikipedia, by the look of it) he gives a long list of references. As Damien mentioned, the list is pretty wild, with refs 83-91 in the text but not in the references, and over twenty references that aren't cited in the text. Even the references that exist aren't necessarily to what they say - my book on NLP is at 45, but not mentioned in the text, whilst there's a link to my website that doesn't appear in the list.

BUT

DESPITE ALL THAT

There are some quite incredible links to really amazing twaddle from, amongst others, the President of ALLEA, who amongst other twaddle in his paper in the ALLEA Annual Report 2003, seems to think that Bandler and Grinder's first book was "Frogs into Princes."

Where did he get that?

Apparently from an article slagging off NLP in the skeptic magazine Skepsis by

Drum roll, etc.

None other than Prof. Levelt, directeur of the Max Planck Institute for Psychology (don't have the exact wording on that last bit, but it's pretty close)

I've Babel Fished Levelt's article into English and now I'm off to try to convert it into a more accurate translation.

Still the message does seem to be - just my opinion you understand - that scepticism rots yer brain!

Be well

Andy B.

You know, whoever gave me a thumbs down is going to feel awful silly when Peter pops back up and clears away all the crap people thought NLP was and gives us all a proper set of techniques only for use in therapy! Then you'll wish you had believed!

And while I'm thinking of it, what should we do to punish the people who will undoubtedly use this new NLP out of it's proper therapeutic context? I'm leaning towards death by six step reframe or maybe a really violent swish...

Be Well,

Michael Perez

Michael Perez,

You talk like a 10 year old ('steaming pile...', etc) & look like Bobo The Clown, but brushing that aside for the moment.

I stated NLP is Therapy but NOT only a therapy.

Look at above link with Paul Mckenna from Youtube if he is not doing therapy, or using NLP in a therapeutic context - explain to me what exactly he is doing?

Also if a Psychotherapist or any type of therapist was helping those same people, why would what they are doing consitute therapy & what Mckenna is doing not be therapy? You understand the meaning of the word therapy I assume.

Karen Hastings, Occupational Therapy, CBT, Hypnotherapy, NLP, Edinburgh Read opening line on NLP. From a trained NLP person, well known and respected in her area. Yet she is wrong, and you of course are right, when she is probably far more knowledgabe on NLP than yourself, has a successful business, and large number of clients, and does not look like Bobo The Clown.

There are masses more like that , that believe NLP is therapy and use it as such, again they are all wrong and Michael 'The Fountain of all Knowedge / Guru of Heavenly Wisdom' Perez is right? Yeh, okay then.

http://www.chrismorris.com/ Read quote from Richard Bandler regarding Chris Morris. Bandler incidentally is nothing short of amazing, but lets not forget like all men is fallible and as others especially those against NLP or sceptical of it have been quick to point out , he has contradicted himself in the past Richard Bandler - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Is Speech Therapy a form of therapy - definitely! Does it mean anytime you give guidance to someone or help with their speech , you are doing speech therapy - of course not.

Michael Perez,

You talk like a 10 year old ('steaming pile...', etc) & look like Bobo The Clown, but brushing that aside for the moment.

I see it, but I don't believe it! I never thought I'd see the day the ever so tactful Michael Perez would be insulted. Normally Michael operates with enough diplomacy to settle the Israel-Palestinian debate.

Without that in mind I've been wondering if to interject some comments on this debate here, I thought I'd interject them now.

NLP as defined by the co founders are:

Grinder draws a distinction between NLP modeling and NLP applications.

Bandler defines NLP as an attitude of curiosity backed up with techniques for change.


If we use the definition of Grinder above we could say one of the applications of NLP is therapy (and sports, business etc)

If we use the definition of Bandler then we could use the arsenal of techniques at our disposal to apply them to therapy (and sports and business etc).

You could be a therapist who uses NLP techniques, or a sports coach who draws on a variety of disciplines such as muscle memory and NLP.

When people ask me what I do, I say a hypnotherapist, at which point I usually "get a WOW! is it like on TV?" or less often "Isn't that from the devil? I need to listen to god talk to me in my head, to see if it's too weird or not". I rarely say I do 'NLP' as most people go into a trance, and one person said to me "sounds like a brand of lubricant". If I want to convey a different image I say I'm a therapist, at which point they usually tell me their life story (which is normally my outcome, to say, 'it's safe, you can open up to me, I hear it all the time.')

Can one be a therapist and use NLP? Of course. Just as one can be a sports coach who uses NLP. Or one can be a therapist who uses Freudian technique.

Now, I think the confusion comes from the main people NLP was originally modelled on. Who were the 3 main people NLP was originally claimed to be modeled on?

Virgina Satir - a family therapist
Milton Erickson - the worlds 'most famous' hypnotherapist
Fritz Perls - the founder of gestalt therapy

Because NLP was founded on 3 early 'therapists' it's going to be natural that most people are going to draw that conclusion. If you think about it, most people these days see an NLP practitioner instead of a 'therapist'. If NLP originally modelled the world's 3 most successful butchers and taught people how successful butchers operated, they'd say NLP is a form of butchery. It'd be a natural conclusion.

Now, it also depends on an individuals definition of 'therapy'. The standard definition of therapy according to the dictionary is "the curing of a disorder with a curative proces", which you could say NLP may fall into.

The fact is most of us respect Bandler and Grinder's wishes (some of us are more Bandler biased, and some are more Grinder biased) If one of them turned around and said NLP is therapy, we'd probably respect their wishes and call it therapy.

Instead they say that NLP can be applied to nearly any field to make it better, such as the meta model and high performance states. Hence an application of NLP is to any field, but probably at the moment it's most well known for being added to a 'therapists' tool kit to actually have practical techniques that can change people.

Additional influences:

Let's also bear in mind Bandler was influenced by the chemist Linus Pauling and the mathetician George Pólya. And Grinder was heavily influenced by Greogry Bateson and Watzlawick. There was also the influence of Carlos Castaneda (whose copped a lot of controversy for the validity of some of his claims)

Let's also remember there was cross over between who influenced who more (ie. All these great thinkers would have influenced both Bandler and Grinder, such as Bateson influenced both Bandler and Grinder, but one could arguably make the case that Bateson may have influenced Grinder more, as some of the new code has been attributed to thoughts extrapolated from the work of Bateson, such as his original definition of double description).

Then there's well thought opinions such as Gabe's who's said. Look, Bandler and Grinder had a great tool kit with the meta model. It helped the validity of it by connecting it to these well known figures.

Bandler also says his modeled 'most' of the geniuses. Being so many people considered geniuses it'd be interesting to know who influenced what specifically.

What are your thoughts?