Hi All

Saw this today in The Guardian.

Anyone come across anything similar? One for Andy Austin...

Cheers

Carl

Wow.

The headline alone sent me straight into trance. Certainly a spectacular demonstration of an unusal model of the world.

Again, wow.

Wow indeed! Interesting piece, thanks for posting that.

One thing I find curious about the body dysmorphic disorders is that the afflicted individuals seek so determinedly to adjust the body to fit the mental map, rather than the other way round (which seems so unthinkable to them) and some will go to such extraordinary lengths to make it so.

I have no experience with this and the following is a complete hallucination:

I wonder if the person had a Kirlian taken, would it show up and differences in the energy fields surrounding her legs. Perhaps a disruption in the normal energy makes her believe that her legs should not really be there at all.

Of course, it could be that she is just a complete looney - or maybe that is just me :-)



Stephen

I find the most interesting and poignant comment the last line of the article.
"For the first time in my life, I can get on with being the real me".
Body identification wins again.
I would have thought some work with the concepts of "real" and "me" would have been beneficial in some way, but there again who knows what has contributed to her map.

Info about the disease here. Interestingly, it is being compared with OCD and some similar medications are being prescribed. Also another UK based psyco has compared it with ADHD and is suggesting stimulants!

Body Integrity Identity Disorder

Shocking story , the lengths people will go to in order to satisfy the need for congruency with their map of the World.

I come into contact with a similar disorder often, although not quite as visually shocking, Body Dysmorphic Disorder, which is more often than not associated with Bulimia and Anorexia, the particular condition I see is known as bigorexia and is an 'accepted' condition within the bodybuilding community, whereby people affected will go to great lengths in order to get as big and as muscular as they possibly can by any means.
The means include; anabolic steroids, growth hormones, insulin, stacking (simultaneous consumption) of ephedrine - caffeine - asprin, with a recent trend towards injecting oil into the muscles fibres to increase mass and silicone implants under the muscle. The condition is the opposite, in many ways, of anorexia with the one main similarity of stripping body fat.

I am interested in body dysmorphic disorders, from an NLP perspective, and ask if anyone has had any experience with or treating such conditions. My reason is that I hope, in the future, to be in a position to coach athletes, bodybuilders etc and an understanding of the condition I believe would be, at the least, fundamental.

Stephen

Emma James does some work around body image and has worked significantly with dysmorphic conitions. She is a member here so you could drop her a line.

Thank you Liz / Beth, I may just do that

brynbach wrote:

Anyone come across anything similar?

I will share what I can without breaking client confidentiality.

I am currently working with a client who has BDD (Body Dysmorphic Disorder). The back-story is harrowing... He has seen a doctor, psychologist, psychiatrist and even went to a top UK clinic and saw their top guy who described his condition as being 'very severe' and hence a 'very difficult' case. He has been treated like a nut-case or child, been told by the 'professionals' that he has 'no hope... you'll just have to learn to live with it' and has been pumped full of drugs, this lead to him attempting suicide a number of times.

Needless to say his condition has not been helped by the comments and suggestions of the 'professionals'.

I offer this back-story to demonstrate how despite the 'severity' of the case, it is the simple things which are making a huge difference...

We have not (directly/consciously) addressed his BDD yet, instead our time together has been what we have nick-named 'the happiness conspiracy' - in other words, lets get him away from the suicidal thoughts, instead starting to appreciate what is great in life and considering the many possibilities and opportunities the future holds. In other words, lets get him smiling again.

I felt this was very important as the 'happiness' will give him 'reserves of energy' to tackle the BDD and will also act as a useful catalyst for greater change.

The results have been great - We have met three times and in just two weeks he has gone from suicidal to a man determined to live his life and get the BDD sorted. The happiness has indeed started to act as a catalyst and he is beginning to take charge of his own thoughts and even developing simple exercises to make him feel good.

About the BDD - It is an intriguing condition as my client is very obviously only seeing a distorted representation when he looks at himself in the mirror.

How is this obvious? Well besides his descriptions being nowhere close to reality, he also screws his eyes up so they are almost closed and then looks at the mirror and describes how clear the 'problem' is...

Try this for yourself - With your eyes almost closed everything you can physically see becomes VERY blurry... the only way to get clarity is to open your eyes or superimpose an internal representation.

With further permission from my client I will continue to keep this thread up-to-date as and when there is something to tell.

Thanks,

Michael

There have been a number of interesting comments on this thread and some emotive words used like looney, psycho (not about her) and shocking. These may be honest reactions to an issue that does not fit comfortably in many of our maps but in hers it does.

She mentioned the similarities between her case and transsexuals, whose surgery is becoming increasingly accepted in europe. To me, this made sense and as I read the article I had already made this connection and so I questioned my own responses to the story. I accept and (think) I understand transexualism and so must understand this woman's journey. A simple re-frame helped. She has used her resources to achieve her goals. The outcome so far seems positive and ecological as she has the support of her husband and mother. Her children's care does not appear to be negatively effected by her actions and she is happier.

In the West we often see similar traits in people who have generated huge amounts of money and the trappings of wealth as something to aspire to and people to learn from. Indeed, there is a considerable body of NLP training devoted to it. It may be a cliche but no amount of money will make anyone happy. She, on the other hand, states that she is much happier. Of course, most of us do not want to remove limbs but there seems to be much that could be learned from this woman and others like her.

Michael, thank you for sharing this information and it certainly fits with the same kind of story I come across in the bodybuilding community, where I know of a number of people who have suicidal tendancies associated with their feelings towards their body.

I was interested to read where you said:

our time together has been what we have nick-named 'the happines conspiracy' - in other words, lets get him away from the suicidal thoughts, instead starting to appreciate what is great in life and considering the many possibilities and opportunities the future holds. In other words, lets get him smiling again.

Without breaking your confidentiality, have you achieved this through normal NLP techniques or by mixing NLP with a more standard counselling approach (Rogerian). My point being to question the efficacy of NLP in such situations, and is it NLP specifically that has been the catalyst for 'breakthrough' change in the client.

Thanks once again for sharing.

Stephen Salmon wrote:

I was interested to read where you said:

"our time together has been what we have nick-named 'the happiness conspiracy' - in other words, lets get him away from the suicidal thoughts, instead starting to appreciate what is great in life and considering the many possibilities and opportunities the future holds. In other words, lets get him smiling again."

Without breaking your confidentiality, have you achieved this through normal NLP techniques or by mixing NLP with a more standard counselling approach (Rogerian). My point being to question the efficacy of NLP in such situations, and is it NLP specifically that has been the catalyst for 'breakthrough' change in the client.

Now we could have the old debate of what is NLP...?

But not today... Your question is a good one.

To use the labels, I used a combination of what you could consider as NLP, NHR (Neuro Hypnotic Repatterning) and CBT (Cognitive Behavioural Therapy).

NLP: Reframe his views on suicide, i.e. keep him on this planet so we can continue working together. Reframe life in general and help the client sort for the 'good stuff'

NHR: Create and spin strong, good feelings

CBT: Specifically what some call 'smile therapy'.

Also, in clarification on something specific you mentioned in your post...

...have you achieved this through normal NLP techniques...

(italics are my emphasis)

To clarify my approach, I have never been one for 'running technique' as I am a firm believer that what many consider as the 'techniques of NLP' are a small part of what is NLP. As I am sure you agree, ''running technique" suggests a 'one-size-fits-all' type arrangement, which is clearly nonsense!

All clients are unique and hence a technique-lead approach is likely to miss something as the the practitioner tries to squeeze the client into the technique.

NLP is so much more than technique - and a real practitioner of NLP understands this and operates accordingly.

I hope this adds some additional info.

M

I specialise in eating disorders and also in Sport. I am a Twice World Champion and have been amongst the sports community all my life - started competing at age 16. and now elderly and still competing.
ANYWAY - Liz, thanks for the mention about body dysmorphic disorder.
Yes, I deal with this pretty much on a weekly basis and most eating disorders have an element of this - the key is finding a time when they were not concerned about how they looked or how others percieved them and work from there. There will usually be a moment in someones life when they have felt that - and then you can work from there.
No, its not as simple as that usually but its generally a good starting point.
The perception of self varies generally depending on our emotional state at the time. For those with severe self image issues it is a deepening cycle with other behaviours usually gradually developing alongside. If you can breakit down and see the main problem and then sort out the "symptoms" ofthat it can be relatively straight forward. If you are dealing with an eating disorder with that then generally this becomes more complicated.
Now then - I have a major issue with the mention of bigorexia or correctly termed as "muscle dysmorphia"
From competing for many many years and working with athletes for a number of years - this generalisation from some theorist has sprung up and sweeping statements are made from some research body that doesnt seem to understand the competitive mentality or those who train.
I came across this rediculus research paper and wrote a page which is on my site - "Muscle Dysmorphia or Psychobabble?" Muscle Dysmorphia

As I am a powerlifter and also having been a competitive bodybuilder at pro level I found the statements ill informed and as usual from those that do not have the personal experience of training or competing at any reasonable level.
To make sweeping statements that people who put on size must be
a) On steroids
b) Have a mental condition
c) Be different from a girl who sees herself as big when she is in fact small
Yes, I have dealt with competitive bodybuilders and strength athletes - mainly because they know I understand the problems associated with the sport having done it - there are problems associated with carrying mass but this is completely different from those that do not compete and want to "get big".. I outlined the difference and hopefully have dispelled the myths, at least for those who read it.
I do understand that those who make those comments are just acting from the information they have at the time and basing thier judgements on that.
There are huge issues surrounding the change of physique either going into off season or change training or even giving up training - and usually body dysmorphic issues as the loathing of the physical change begins. I have experienced them myself.
This brinks me to the other "misinformation" mentioned whic is that "muscle dysmorphia" is in fact related to bodyfat levels on muscularity.
Its exercise anorexia. Generally there is a desperate need to keep bodyfat off - anything but that. In increasing muscularity this is a way to keep lean and reduce bodyfat. This is why post competition can be crucial in managing as some will not be able to handle the increase in bodyfat out of season and then go to the "burn off what I eat" -. This is exercise anorexia and then there will be an extreme CV level in order to keep the body fat levels down and will in fact kill a competitive career in any sport. .
Sorry about the rant, I dont do it very often honest.

Thank you Michael for your detailed reply, you answer is what I was hoping for.

If I may digress for a moment and apply an analogy. I have been involved with a number of martial arts including Kick Boxing, Aikido and Bunjinkan Ninjutsu, and by far the most encompassing, from a personal perspective, was Ninjutsu as the ethos was 'that any technique, that worked in combat, no matter from which school or form was considered a ninjutsu technique.'

I guess when applying this analogy to an intervention, whatever technique works, and from whichever avenue of 'therapy' then it can be considered a successful intervention.

To keep hammering away with one particular style, will limit ones possibilities for success.

Thanks again

Stephen

Hi all,

There's been a lot of activity on this thread involved in the BDD discussion, and that's great.

On a different note, I just wanted to stick my hand up and tip my hat to Stuart Harragan, whose last post made some good points that are really worth considering with regards to the article at the centre of Carl's initial post.

Cheers,

James

I would love to share my experience with the client with similar issue.
She is a "normal size" woman when looking at herself in a mirror could see herself as just being "round". None of the simple approach of "friendly mirror", "Eyes of the people who love and appreciate her" worked.
When I asked why she does not believe to person who loves her she answered that because of her scars she despises herself.
As I learnt subsequently, she had surgery for cancer treatment with the both breasts removed.She had to put on weight,so that some skin could be removed from her stomach for breasts reconstruction. So she has great big scar across her stomach as well.

I understood that in her case he traumatic experience made her see herself differently.

So I have asked her to go back to first time when she saw herself with the scars.

I did expected strong reaction but nothing nearly as strong as followed. Bright red face and fountain of tears.

Had to clear trauma very quickly as she was uncomfortable.

Four minutes later (it did take a bit long as she was toxic,she drunk night before and i was unaware of that), anyway,four minutes later she was looking at herself in the mirror
with the great surprise on her face saying that she does look very different now,she has waist and all!

Later the same day there was a different person, different trauma- same result: once the negative emotion been removed(this time 40 years old) the person saw herself in a very positive way!

Hope it will be of some help.

Irina