Forgive me father for I may be going against the grain...

Whether you're New to New code NLP 'John Grinder' Style, or have used some of the techiniques exstensively. I'd like to hear your opinions on the models and how you incorporate them into your daily practice...

Have you set out and used the new code change formats and (dare I say it) FAILED... Believe me I have had some hammer over using the word 'fail' as if it blasphemes the NLP world (to some people). Well, that is not my intention so call it whatever you like even my favorite MIS-TAKE if you care. And after testing the patterns and maybe sometimes them not working what did you decide about the New Code...

How do you incorporate it into what you do?

Did you think allelujah it's the best thing since sliced bread?

Or did you decide it wasn't the difference that was making a difference?

I am a certified NLP Trainer in New Code NLP... I have tested the patterns and I work with people that have tested the patterns far far more than I... In everyday 'real life' one to one situations...

I'm not here to defend anything or anyone but to open a dialogue about a subject I think people will enjoy participating...

Also on Friday this week I will be interviewing Jorgen Rasmussen (author of the book) Provocative Hypnosis and posting some free audio with regards to this subject. He has extensive knowledge of one to one change-work and your posts/questions/musings can easily influence fridays content...

Wayne

MrDigital wrote:

Forgive me father for I may be going against the grain...

Whether you're New to New code NLP 'John Grinder' Style, or have used some of the techiniques exstensively. I'd like to hear your opinions on the models and how you incorporate them into your daily practice...

Have you set out and used the new code change formats and (dare I say it) FAILED... Believe me I have had some hammer over using the word 'fail' as if it blasphemes the NLP world (to some people). Well, that is not my intention so call it whatever you like even my favorite MIS-TAKE if you care. And after testing the patterns and maybe sometimes them not working what did you decide about the New Code...

How do you incorporate it into what you do?

Did you think allelujah it's the best thing since sliced bread?

Or did you decide it wasn't the difference that was making a difference?

I am a certified NLP Trainer in New Code NLP... I have tested the patterns and I work with people that have tested the patterns far far more than I... In everyday 'real life' one to one situations...

I'm not here to defend anything or anyone but to open a dialogue about a subject I think people will enjoy participating...

Also on Friday this week I will be interviewing Jorgen Rasmussen (author of the book) Provocative Hypnosis and posting some free audio with regards to this subject. He has extensive knowledge of one to one change-work and your posts/questions/musings can easily influence fridays content...

Wayne

Hi Wayne,

This has the potential to be an interesting thread.

I use New Code techniques regularly with clients, more often then not. What I use though always (yes, always without exception) is the New Code attitude. Mainly giving ultimate responsibility and decision making to the unconscious mind and being aware that in any conversation/interaction there are 4 people involved. (ie the 'client', agent of change and their respective unconscious minds.)

I often fail. In fact, on a weekly basis I come across a client where something hasn't shifted. And I think, as NLP Text book as it might sound, it's fantastic. It just means that the work gets a lot more interesting and a new creative way can be found.

More often then not though, in hindsight it's because the person's unconscious mind hasn't quite been seized yet (gosh that sounds violent) and I think that's where Jorgen's provactive work has really bolstered my own practice. By using provocation, or even just alternative questioning, I'm finding a real significant shift in my work when combined with the New Code. I think a crucial point is that rapport doesn't have to be a comfortable thing, as I heard Grinder say only a couple of weeks ago (and I paraphrase...) "Comfortable people don't change."

Along with metaphor, I'm increasingly finding a combination of Provcative Therapy and New Code a really powerful mix in helping people to enhance choice within their own lives; but no, I don't think it's the allelujah of all techniques and I daresay I even do a Timeline once in a while...but more often then not, Rapport + An Unconscious Request of some sort + Calibration (to check the unconscious is with you ecologically) = Significant Change.

Would love to hear other's thoughts...

Good thread
I am a new code trainer
I have found that the fundamentals of new code have produced great results in my work
such things as ...handing over to the unconscious........keeping my map out of it,......perceptual positions...working at levels of state and intention...and bringing heaps more content free into the work

not to say that much of this was not happening before ....but just a big quality shift after the training ...perhaps based on greater understanding

in fact the results are amazing


What i have had more difficulty with is the use of flow state as a resource..............and yet the principle of it i find intelligent and sensible(the clean content free approach for all its reasons is very attractive)...............one thing that holds me back from using it is that it does not have such a CONVINCING effect for some clients in contrast to say piling on layer and layer of (lets say) love......my impression is that many clients respond more emotively than in a zen like way.

this is not to say that i do not use the flow state as a resource but i do not use it as much as what you might call a contaminated content resource.

Being a meditator I also love the kind of minimilist approach of new code....very refreshing in the new age
However i like to talk a lot and use repetition as a technique(as a teacher we had the phrase if you want them to get it then tell them 10 times) so although i keep it minimilist in many ways it is surrounded by other stuff

In conclusion ...the new code is GREAT...and i have used it to fit with how i am comfortable....in a way made it my own..........it has lead to an increase in me creating my own way of working .....eg finding new protocols or adjusting old ones

it has also encouraged me to gain greater rapport with myself and somehow allow nlp patterns to be incorporated more into my unconscious

What can i say New Code .....YEAH....GREAT .....FANTASTIC........IMPRESSIVE
yours anekant

Is New Code NLP progression for progressions sake, and just to show that John Grinder alone can come up with radically different approaches? Is it really needed people got along just fine dealing with clients before it, and everyone gets along just fine now that does not know or use it?

The amount of people certified under John Grinder is very small compared to Richard Bandler, Tad James, etc; therefore the amount of people using New Code that have legit certification is fairly small also, compared to the latest developments DHE, Persuasion Engineering, etc from Bandler or Time Line Therapy from Tad James.

John Grinder is a great thinker, and I'm sure he had sound reasons to develop New Code NLP beyond the 'I'll show you what I can do myself beyond my work with Richard, and beyond the original NLP we created' but as not many people are using it or feel the need to go and get certified in it, you have to consider the importance and relevancy of it in NLP today. Don't misunderstand that not that some radical nw approach cannot be great just because it is not that widely used, just that the most successful trainers and people dealing with clients in all countries are for the most part not using it, nor feel the need to go learn it or get certified in it.

One more question in closing, what can New Code NLP do that Trainers in SNLP, ABNLP, etc cannot do, in dealing with clients what are the advantages of New Code over the approaches of Richard Bandler, Tad James, etc? If there are no advantages and I don't see any, then it is a personal preference thing people that want to learn it to add to their bag of tricks or feel a particular affinity to John Grinder as a Trainer and his work, should go learn it, for the majority of others ot can be deemed unecessary. The vast majority of the most successful & well known NLP trainers & practitioners working with clients in any country do not use New Code NLP and get fantastic results without it.

NLPNext wrote:

Is New Code NLP progression for progressions sake, and just to show that John Grinder alone can come up with radically different approaches? Is it really needed people got along just fine dealing with clients before it, and everyone gets along just fine now that does not know or use it?

I don't believe it is progression just for progressions sake. In some ways, it doesn't even need to be described as progression and nor should it be.

I sometimes see it as a back to basics approach that is trying to correct some of the unacceptable and unethical behaviour of the original coding taken out of context. It often seems to me, within the application of NLP, much closer to what Erickson intentions were when they modelled him.

Of course, we can never know for sure what those intentions were.

NLPNext wrote:

The amount of people certified under John Grinder is very small compared to Richard Bandler, Tad James, etc; therefore the amount of people using New Code that have legit certification is fairly small also, compared to the latest developments DHE, Persuasion Engineering, etc from Bandler or Time Line Therapy from Tad James.

I'm curious as to your intention in pointing this out?

The quickest analogy that comes to my mind is that millions of people would prefer to watch the Lady Gaga ft Beyonce video on the Internet today, rather then sit down and listen to a symphony orchestra. Does that make the music more effective in it's intention?

NLPNext wrote:

John Grinder is a great thinker, and I'm sure he had sound reasons to develop New Code NLP beyond the 'I'll show you what I can do myself beyond my work with Richard, and beyond the original NLP we created' but as not many people are using it or feel the need to go and get certified in it, you have to consider the importance and relevancy of it in NLP today. Don't misunderstand that not that some radical nw approach cannot be great just because it is not that widely used, just that the most successful trainers and people dealing with clients in all countries are for the most part not using it, nor feel the need to go learn it or get certified in it.

Similar to the last point; Many more people tonight will go see Will We Rock You at the Dominion Theatre (The Queen Musical) then will attend Much Ado About Nothing by the Royal Shakespeare Company or the little fringe production by a Romanian Playwright that is in a small theatre in Camden Town - does that mean that the latter has no importance or relevancy?

How does popularity equal relevance?

How does celebrity endorsement equal importance to you?

NLPNext wrote:

One more question in closing, what can New Code NLP do that Trainers in SNLP, ABNLP, etc cannot do, in dealing with clients what are the advantages of New Code over the approaches of Richard Bandler, Tad James, etc? If there are no advantages and I don't see any, then it is a personal preference thing people that want to learn it to add to their bag of tricks or feel a particular affinity to John Grinder as a Trainer and his work, should go learn it, for the majority of others ot can be deemed unecessary. The vast majority of the most successful & well known NLP trainers & practitioners working with clients in any country do not use New Code NLP and get fantastic results without it.

This question is much more interesting to me.

Essentially, your question presupposes a gulf of skills. This is not necessarily the case. There are some practitioners of NLP who have been solely trained by Bandler or James etc who are pretty aware of some aspects of New Code without having explicitly trained in it but crucially there are many who are not.

Having assisted on various training courses for different companies, I see a tremendous amount of incongruence in practitioners and change workers on forums really trying to shoe horn techniques to work with a client.

When you talk about these 'fantastic results,' What exactly are these results? Are they getting them with every client all of the time? And crucially, do they stick?

I'm not claiming practicing New Code NLP with your clients will get that either, but I can only talk from personal experience that I notice a significant difference have responded more effectively over the past 12-18 months that i've been using New Code Games (as a compliment to my existing work.)

Essentially, the New Code Games are generating a state in which your unconscious is accessing all the resources you have inside you and utilising the most appropriate one at the most appropriate moment to the context you want difference in.

In Classic Code NLP, for example, I have a client who gets shy at parties. I use a Classic Code Change format to take him from being shy to confident. I've now turned an unhappy robot to a happy robot.

In the New Code, I take a client who gets shy at parties. I use a New Code Change format to give him the choice from being shy to being anything that's appropriate in that context- and with generative change, in any other context that the unconscious sees as relevant. I also do an ecology check with the UC mind (in the N step format) to check this is still safe and congruent within his wider safety, health and well being.

To conclude, I find all change formats fascinating. That's one of the things I enjoy visiting this forum for- whether I agree with the principles or not. I don't think we're ever going to find just 'one' way of doing things- I do believe there are ways of doing things though that are unacceptable (for instance, when they involve content imposition or unecological change.) and the New Code takes a strong step towards minmising, if not erradicating, these instances.

I think that new code is about giving a sense of wisdom to what some regard as a bunch of tools.....this is really important because nlp technology is so effective that it gets people what they want (wisdom or no wisdom)........

the business world (and others) has in many cases taken the technology and used it unwisely.....more sales , more cars, bigger markets (without ecology or a connection to the intelligence of the unconscious)....many businesses have given the decision making process to the conscious mind, the part that the new code says is least able to make an intelligent change.....................

.a very good metaphor for this is from 'Turtles All The Way Down' which describes the Red indian medicine wheel, which is made up of arcs that join to make the whole circle. There are a lot of disconnected arcs operating in the world right now ......factory farming........destruction of amazon hardwood........national health policies etc etc.................................my own interpretation is that new code is an attempt to create the whole wheel.

Far from an attempt to keep up with the Jones' it represents refreshing way of creating a future direction

yours anekant

There weren't that many changes made in New Code just essential ones - three new emphasis I think - state, explicit involvement of the.... Wait for it.... Yes THE UNCONSCIOUS!!! And explicit assignment of responsibility for the changes to the unconscious If anyone is interested in a collection of groundbreaking essays into the unconscious here is an excellent book:
The New Unconscious Social Cognition and Social Neuroscience: Amazon.co.uk: Ran R. Hassin, James S. Uleman, John A. Bargh: Books
I tried to explain to Tom Vizzini the other day how someone's state affects their behaviour and there behaviour isn't necassarily them it is their behaviour in a particualr state but he preferred his interpretations which is one way I feel New Code of a distinct advantage when working especially avoidance of content imposition through linguistic transforms.
This thread is about pitfalls however and although I do not have a mass of client experience there are experiences and contexts where I perceive there may be difficulty. Some people for what ever reason have to analyse the far end of a fart.

What happens when you do a New Code game and a client is so uncomfortable not having their old responses they will engage their conscious minds and come up with new "problems"?

Or someone so unbelievably out of touch with themselves in mind & body they wouldn't know a change if it knocked them out?

How do you gauge a clients commitment?

Has no one honestly never had a stubborn client who reframes with absolute finesses to the point of excerbation?

Insert all problems with cold hard left brain clients here:

Alistair_Donnell wrote:

What happens when you do a New Code game and a client is so uncomfortable not having their old responses they will engage their conscious minds and come up with new "problems"?

Technically the New Code by-passes this problem as the new responses, selected by the unconscious, will satisfy whichever intentions the changed behaviour satisfied.

I have had an instance when working with someone where they reacted quite furiously when questioned some time after the change. (most of the issues I deal with are business oriented and could easily (although not always) be classified as less intense, this one wasn't). This was a good learning opportunity and I actually put this potential 'failure' down to my own performance in application as a coach rather than a failing of methodology - because my own state was way less than optimal, I didn't calibrate effectively enough to know for sure whether my client had accessed a high performance state via the game we played.

I am also interested to hear from anyone, who is experienced inthe use of New Code NLP, who has examples of when they haven't been able to successfully apply to change work.

What about a new state having to be more enticing than the old unwanted state inorder to ensure installion in the context (such as in the smoking dooda with the new state being as immediate and (so called) positive so that it is kind of drags the client into change (otherwise the old state is more potent and change does not happen)

Could there be something about the high performance state that does not have the dragability of a stacked content resource ......Can you increase high performance states or is it digital

Sure the check might be that a state change was calibrated in the session room but might there be some arguement for it not holding with real life anchors or 10 rounds in the ring with the old behaviour

I have had varying results with the high performance state....some very good and some not so good....and sometimes when it has not worked out i think it is for similar reasons as Renee....calibration skills............however i am somewhat hooked into content resourcing because i have an idea i get better results with it (results that the old behaviour goes/ not in terms of the robot response)...............often i only have one shot at my clients(i am a nomadic therapist) so i am a little loathe to fully cross over

i have yet to try what jorgen did ....to employ the proceedures to every client no matter what(or something similar)

My other concern is as a convincer....i often work in therapy centres where i am vying with many other practitioners , breathe, primal, family constellation, tantra, etc many clients want intensity or they want to really feel that something has changed (with a big C)......when the new code games have worked, it is subtle, people dont always know until much later and then they sometimes dont credit it to the to the nlp it is more like a natural change.........................so in this sense it may not create immediate business

The involuntary signals i use a lot .......with very good results.....i am a bodyworker as well (ex trager practitioner) and find that the signals makes all the difference to a session....particularly with pain issues.

yours anekant

Tonight I will be discussing this subject and including some of your valuable comments for what should be another interesting and enjoyable interview with Jorgen Rasmussen... Thanks for your input and i'll be back later with an update...

Wayne