In a rather busy thread titled All Behavior Has Positive Intent, there arose a side-discussion about whether or not it's optimal, or even useful, to refer to The Ideas Listed At This Here Link as "presuppositions". We then ran into this question: if not that label, then which label?

Eric Robbie suggested a phone-in show to decide, but it's expensive for me to call the UK, so I'll post it here instead: What better word or phrase fills the blank in "The ____________ of NLP"?

So far, we have suggested:

• Key Ideas
• Axioms
• Basic Assumptions
• Postulates
• Operating Principles
• Starting Principles
• Useful Ways of Thinking
• Useful Lies
• Initial body of principles
• Basic tenets
• Founding assumptions
• Primary notions

What else do you have? post your suggestions in this thread. Later, we'll run a vote.

Michael_DeBusk wrote:

In a rather busy thread titled All Behavior Has Positive Intent, there arose a side-discussion about whether or not it's optimal, or even useful, to refer to The Ideas Listed At This Here Link as \\"presuppositions\\". We then ran into this question: if not that label, then which label?

Eric Robbie suggested a phone-in show to decide, but it's expensive for me to call the UK, so I'll post it here instead: What better word or phrase fills the blank in \\"The ____________ of NLP\\"?

So far, we have suggested:

• Key Ideas
• Axioms
• Basic Assumptions
• Postulates
• Operating Principles

What else do you have? post your suggestions in this thread. Later, we'll run a vote.

imo if you keep stuck to the '' the ____ of NLP ' format.. then it absolute doesn't matter what you fill into the blank.

as Eric described ... it never started out with 'THE presuppositions of NLP' ... but then the rot began..

.. and it has more to do with THE and OF then with the label 'presupposition' ...

have fun

Bart

"Some starting principles for your thinking on NLP"

Hi All,

bart wrote:

imo if you keep stuck to the '' the ____ of NLP ' format.. then it absolute doesn't matter what you fill into the blank.

as Eric described ... it never started out with 'THE presuppositions of NLP' ... but then the rot began..

.. and it has more to do with THE and OF then with the label 'presupposition' ...

To simply phrase it as "NLP Operating Principles/Axioms/Postulates/Basis Assumptions etc" addresses this concern.

Once NLP Thingummyjigs has been determined, I can see another concern on the horizon.

In the thread All Behavior Has Positive Intent, early on Eric stated that originally there were 7 of these items,

And it then gives a list of just seven. That's right, just seven. They were (exact wording):

\\\"a. outcome orientation with respect for other's models [sic] of the world and the ecology of the system.
\\\"b. distinction between map and territory.
\\\"c. there is only feedback (cybernetic) - no failure.
\\\"d. meaning of your communication is response you get.
\\\"e. positive intent of all behavior.
\\\"f. everyone has the necessary resources.
\\\"g. resistance is a signal of insufficient pacing.\\\"

As echoed on one of the links put forward by Michael, The Ideas Listed At This Here Link where there are 8.

My list of "NLP Operating Principles" to which I have been referring contains 20 items, and I am sure others have different, longer even lists.

The list of 20 includes those quotes by Eric and on The Ideas Listed At This Here Link. Now I am not strongly attached to the other 8 - 9. However if we are going to go "back to basics" once having determined the title for the list, can we also agree what needs to be on it, and what does not ? To quote Eric again from All Behavior Has Positive Intent

IF you can decide which ones are strictly necessary. :-)))

Michael, I am not trying to make this more complicated than it needs to be, although I would accept that criticism. In essence, I am all for proper labeling and simplification. Sometimes however you have to throw everything up in the air to see how it all falls down, you know ?

It would strike me as a shame and a missed opportunity to have a beautifully named list of partly superfluous or redundant or erroneous waffle.

Looking forward to your next post (as usual)

MH

malcombhead wrote:

Hi All,



To simply phrase it as "NLP Operating Principles/Axioms/Postulates/Basis Assumptions etc" addresses this concern.



MH

hi,

it does not address it at all..

you keep presupposing that those 'Operating Principles/Axioms/Postulates/Basis Assumptions etc' are a basic and integral part of NLP

then you start to wonder how much of those really are that...

what I propose is to drop the link between " (the) presuppositions'" and NLP... use them where you find it usefull..

which is something most NLP Practitioners are already doing, when they excute NLP techniques ... ie: Swish.- and every behavior as a positive intention ...as a simple explicit example

untill they start "discussing" the presuppositions... then they are 'holly' and then they become THE presuppositions OF NLP

not realizing that they ignore those same presuppositions/principles completely when "practicing" NLP

...and move on

:-)

Have fun

Bart

Hi Bart,

Yeah, I think I understand what you are saying, and even agree with you for the most part. Only very rarely, if ever over the years have I raised one or any of these axioms/whatever in direct client work, only ever in a training context when trotting out a version of what was once put to me. I agree that these ideas should not be regarded as Holy or sacrosanct and see this thread as a chance to toss some of that around in a way that might be interesting and useful.

However as a starting point, in a discussion about NLP rather than a demonstration of NLP I have found it useful for me, and others to introduce some fundamental ideas.

I kind of see the value of a short list of basics as this. If you cannot pretend (if you like) or put on for size ideas X, Y and Z then you are going to fumble with this stuff later on in training and in practice. For example, if the would be practitioner cannot make easy distinctions between say the map and the territory, content and process, then IMHO they are going to run the risk of losing themselves, and their clients when it comes to applications of techniques. I would not say any of them are "true" like it is "true" to say that uranium is more dense than aluminum, at least in their solid forms. However if we can act as if at times, we create the context where things might happen that would not have happened otherwise, true(ish) ?

However I am not sure I fully agree with

not realizing that they ignore those same presuppositions/principles completely when "practicing" NLP

I think there is a critical difference between covert or background awareness of these principles and ignoring them completely.

But that's just my take

Finally, in discussion about rather than demonstration of, if we are introducing NLP to a new audience, where else would you propose that we start ?

MH

Neil Poynter wrote:

"Some starting principles for your thinking on NLP"

Thank you, Neil, for responding to the thread. I've added your suggestion.

Sorry for banging on about this but if the NLP Presuppositions are simply linguistic devices to be used as and when appropriate, why do the need any sort of name other than presuppositions.

Simply drop the NLP from the name and stop using them as some sort of identifier or am I missing something again?

John

When you argue with reality, you lose - but only 100% of the time

Aren't they not just usefull ways of thinking from time to time?

Spot the pre-suppositions...

Wayne

John Humberstone says:

"Or am I missing something again?"

Yes.