this includes some thinking on how and why branches of NLP came about with (what appears to be) unconscious relations with and reactions to vestibular inputs into holistic awareness... and what may be the critical ingredient that distinguishes associative and dissociative frames of reference...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpRDZ42LftA]YouTube - NLP and the Vestubular System[/ame]

Hi Bufo,

You might like to know that Andrew Austin is doing some really interesting things with the vestibular modality in his Metaphors of Movement Seminars. My partner had an opportunity to meet Andy on his last trip here to the States. He learned enough about this process for us to start 'playing with it'. I've used it in several instances with a 'stuck state' and have had great success with it. Just for the record, we are not receiving any remuneration for passing on this link A Masterclass For NLP Practitioners and Hypnotherapists. We are planning on attending and passing it to anyone who might be interested in learning more.

You might be interested also in the "Clean Language" model The Clean Collection - www.cleanlanguage.co.uk, which I suspect Andy might have used as a paradigm in developing protocols for Metaphors in Movements (as well as his IEMT). A good beginner's book is Clean Language by Sullivan and Rees Amazon.com: Clean Language:Revealing Metaphors and Opening Minds (9781845901257): Wendy Sullivan, Judy Rees: Books

I'm curious - and please forgive me, if I misunderstood youhttp://www.nlpconnections.com/images/smilies/blush.gif - as to why you don't think spinning (used both by Bandler and Kemp in the anxiety technique) is an untested vestibular modality? I've used the sub-modalities of spin direction, speed, location, size, etc. on a number of occasions and it has an immediate effect. It works just as well as any other sub-modality change work.

Hope the forum finds this thread interesting. It's a fascinating subject.
http://www.nlpconnections.com/images/smilies/applause.gif

Wishing you a 'peace' in the puzzle,

Lucia

I'm totally open to any good discussion of spin as a consciousness altering tool... it is just that I haven't run across it in youtube, written form (as in books ar downloads aimed at NLP thinking)... etc.... soon I will demonstrate via youtube a spin inducing motion chair (via a strong motorized base) that sits directly behind me.... I've had that machine in use for over a decade.... babies seem to like it very much, BTW... however... the critical difference in real time application is this... the experience seems to be VASTLY enhanced when the subject is fully reclined in "zedo grav simulation" so there is an acceleration component that feels like what you'd experience in a "trust fall", except you may do this 15 times per minute... the other half is similar to "falling up" while spinning... so TWO elements of the Vestib. system are engaged, the semi-circular canals and the otolith organs of the utricule.... ergo, a very complex motion in relation to gravity and the self-righting reflexes...

Ah, understood! You are actually talking about using a device of some sort to affect change in the vestibular system so you might be able to measure whether or not it would alter consciousness. I'll be interested to hear of your results.

Yes, my friend Larry Schultz has been building these for the therapy market for years.... beds, cribs, chairs.. and so on... for stroke rehabilitation, loosening mental structures, brain development.... they are quite remarkable machines, very "transporting"... esp. if you go to sleep while in motion... a real witches ride!

btw.. to have some idea of how archaic this sensory modality is, even jellyfish possess it, evolving in the precambrian era of about 600,000,000 years ago ! In 1990 NASA wanted to study vestibular perception so they loaded a tank of jellyfish into the space station...

"In addition to the seven human crew members, there were 29 rats and 2,000 jellyfish aboard. The normally bobbing jellyfish swam in circles in zero gravity. Jellyfish have gravity receptors analogous to organs found in the human inner ear. By examining the development of these jellyfish receptors in space, scientists hope to gain understanding of the adaptation of the human vestibular system to zero gravity, thereby gaining insight on space adaptation sickness. "

Very interesting! Does your friend, Larry have a website?

If the powers that be would not object... it is Integrative Motion Systems..

Integrative Motion Systems - Symmetron Deep Relaxation

I've been fascinated by Vestibular for some time, because of this question ...

Does the Vestibular system have all the same properties as other modalities / rep systems, or is it unique among them.

Specifically, can people do Vestibular Recall and Vestibular Construct? (Or are we only able to experience Vestibular 'in the now'.) And if you can, what are the sub-modalities of that? Can you hypnotically experience balance when you're not actually balanced?

I have, of course, explored these questions by experimenting in my own experience. Apart from suffering from paroxysmal positional vertigo for a short time some months ago (that's when debris enters the vestibular canal and triggers false "I'm falling down" signals), my subjective experience of recalling and constructing 'vestibular' states is that the infrormation seems to be translated into the kinesthetic zone. At least when recalling and constructing.

Now, whether that's an error of subjectivity on my part ... who knows.

So, as well as being the 'forgotten' modality, is it also the 'different' modality in terms of what we can and can't do with it?

Incidentally, Richard's thing of spinning feelings in directions, I think that's a created kinesthetic experience, rather than a created vestibular experience. No?

Anyone want to come in on that one?

Cheers

My approach has been in mapping pure vestibular input, which we can control accurately with the Symmetron, over to a color wheel.... so when you are in one position you imaging "pure green" as strongly as you can, then "yellow green"... then "green".. with each color serving as a mapping description to a degree of rotation... it's rather difficult at first but the mind catches on quickly... so a somewhat obscure vestibular message can be metaphorically seen/described in color terms.... this is quite excellent for balance awareness, especially if used in combination with swiss balls and unstable platforms...

Vestibular rehabilitation therapy and… Wii Fit? | Vertigo Guy

Steve_W wrote:

Specifically, can people do Vestibular Recall and Vestibular Construct?

OMG, that's how I do what I do. I've been playing with the Markova model, specifically how the preferred rep system of the subconscious (Markova's terminology) can be used in imagined contexts. My subconscious preferred rep system is V and I am easily able to imagine seeing any object or place from any angle or vantage point even if I have never physically been at those angles or vantage points. When I do this I experience a physical sense of dislocation which gives me the feeling of being at the imagined vantage point. I once imagined floating upside down near the ceiling so I could get a better view of a troublesome light fitting, and I wondered why I felt dizzy. I suggest I experience vestibular construct.

Steve_W wrote:

So, as well as being the 'forgotten' modality, is it also the 'different' modality in terms of what we can and can't do with it?

Incidentally, Richard's thing of spinning feelings in directions, I think that's a created kinesthetic experience, rather than a created vestibular experience. No?

Anyone want to come in on that one?

Cheers

Hi Steve,

When I experienced the spinning feelings thing I got the kinaesthetic sensation and also I felt a shift in my balance I felt more centred. Maybe its because of all the Aikido/Judo/Jujitsu training thrughout my life that I have a keen sense of my balance as well as others around me.

I interpreted the balance, feeling of movement and awareness of low level vibrations as more of an extension of kinaesthetics rather than a whole new rep system although I am open to be taught otherwise. I have managed quite successfully to recall and create these sensations with clients and students.

This may be tenuious but I believe that Derren Brown on one of his shows had someone experience the feeling of being drunk and anchored this to a word and when he fired off the anchor the guy had the full experience of being drunk along with the reduced co-ordination and balance could this be an example of a remembered verstibular change caused by alcohol? Any thoughts?

Jason

Fascinating topic, this.

Jason,

I recognise your experience of centredness. I've had it too. The 'one point' exercise comes from Aikido, does it not?

Question is, do you mentally construct centredness first (i.e. mentally experience centredness while your body is not centred) and your body follows, or do you experience centredness because your body is centred, in response to a kinesthetic construct (the spinning feelings)?

In other words, is it:

Eic > Ke/Ee

Or:

Kic > Ke/Ee

(I've used 'E' for Vestibular to avoid confusion with 'V' for Visual.)

The example of induced drunkenness is more interesting in that this, on the surface, does seem to be a case of hallucinating a loss of vestibular control and then that manifesting physically.

Incidentally, if anyone wants to have wild rollercoaster experiences without having to pay for them, I can definitely recommend getting paroxysmal positional vertigo. You get to have some wild rides. Trouble is, you don't get to choose when you ride. And, boy, can it make you sick!

(Serriously, I don't recommend it. But it's an interesting reference experience. Glad it's gone.)

Cheers

I've just realised this may be a better way of expressing what I'm pondering ...

Clearly, there is this distinct, specific hardware for Vestibular.

But in terms of re-presenting experience, do we have the brain hardware to represent Vestibular experience, or are we limited to representing Vestibular experience via Kinesthetic?

Like I said above, my personal (and possibly misinterpreted) experience of representing and constructing vestibular experience is that it seems to be represented through K.

Forgive me if it was redundant of me to re-phrase myself in this way.

Cheers

I've watched this four times now. Very "moving" Cheers for this Bufo