A client (36) said to me at the end of the intake session that life is pointless if she can not be the best in the office, the most gorgeous looking, most intelligent and most perfect in every way. She has an incredible high pitched voice, like a young 12 year old girl and I was surprised when I met her to see a 36 year old woman. She comes to me for weight loss as she sais that she wants to lose 30 kg to be on the outside who she is in the inside, but whenever she reaches a certain weight, she stops herself and feels that she is scared of the outcome, as what then? At this point she wants to be helped.
The weightloss is for her a means to an end to get into her fairy tale life, the relationship she wants and having lots of babies. As she is overweight, she does not allow herself to get into any relationship as well as believes that as her body is not perfect , she rejects good work offers, as she thinks my body is not perfect, so why do people believe I can do the job well. Regarding a relationship she sais: "What if I am perfect and get into a relationship, what if my partner is not perfect or I am not perfectly in love, or my life is nevertheless not perfect." Yes, I have my own sense how to proceed (Core transformation with the part which makes her stop), nevertheless I would be interested what thoughts or ideas you might have concerning the usage of NLP in her case. Thanks a lot for your insights.

Hi Edel,

You can very well proceed with CT to address the part that stops her from achieving her outcome. My hunch is, if you are able to communicate with this part, you will be faced with interference from other part(s) that want her to "be perfect". And that's desirable, because I think it is this issue of the "be perfect" driver that is far deeper and could get her into bigger problems in future. There seems to be some core belief associated with "being perfect" that seems to be ruling a greater share of her activities as well as goals. As you start working with her, these issues could surface on their own, which is even better than you telling her explicitly that this obsession with perfection is badly placed and she needs to do something about it. Let her learn about it as she learns to communicate with her own unconscious. Meanwhile, it would be helpful to keep Timeline techniques also in your toolkit.

All the best.

Hi Edel

Fear of success can sometimes suggest the apparently-desired outcome does not actually sit well with the ecology on a deep level, leading to sabotage. As well as Core Transformation with the 'stop' part, it might be worth exploring the beliefs that conflict with it. Also, the secondary gain from not achieving the 'fairy tale' might offer clues - for instance, would having babies mean to her that her career is over?

Perfection is a nominalization ripe for dismantling - ask her to define it fully, then ask her about counter-examples in her life that nevertheless led to a satisfying outcome. You could mention that nearly everyone's seen unflattering paparazzi shots of celebrities on the beach, or read about their topsy-turvy private lives - they're not 'perfect', but that hasn't stopped them following their dreams!

Hi Edel,

I think that the CT will definitely be useful. Have you asked her how she will know when things are perfect? Does she have an end product in terms of mental image of how she wants to look?

I would also be inclined to find out what she gains from staying as she is. I have a feeling that there is definitely a strong secondary gain with her. I would also check for a fear of success because once she has achieved the weight loss what next?

You mentioned that she has a voice like a 12 year old and Gustav has already suggested time line therapy. I think that I may be inclined hypnotically regress her and to look into her past and probably early teens if I could find the root cause and see if I can not only change her present condition but also change how she views her past from the point of root cause to present day and then into the future.

I would look at how she knows. Is she internal or externally referenced.

I believe that success and happiness are due to the journey rather than the destination. If she can move towards this belief then the perfection will become less important since it then becomes a direction rather than an end it itself.

Greetings from a new boy.

What strikes me most forcefully about this thread is that I believe this is not a matter for NLP at all, but for psychotherapy/hypnotherapy.

The trigger for this need for perfection should be found and resolved.

Sorry to be out of step.

D

9Steps wrote:

What strikes me most forcefully about this thread is that I believe this is not a matter for NLP at all, but for psychotherapy/hypnotherapy.

The trigger for this need for perfection should be found and resolved.


D

David,

What are your criteria for selecting NLP or hypnotherapy/psychotherapy?

Chris

Chris, hi.

If there is a specific cause (generally found in childhood), then I would probably use hypnosis (more accurately a combination of hypnosis and psychotherapy, therefore appealing to the rational and non-rational parts of the mind simultaneously). This is because the world-view is likely to need changing deep down.

If the behaviour has an adult or unidentified origin then I may well use NLP techniques to change the behavioural patterns (what I refer to as 'brief therapy' - deal with the presenting problem directly rather than looking for a world-view cause).

I know this is a bit vague, it's a bit hard to codify on an 'if-this-do-that' basis because there are so many variables, but that would be a starting point.

The proper application of any skill learned to the unconscious competence level will very often be intuitively clear. That's how it all works.

D

How about simply asking her to find a dozen or so examples of successful women who society would deem overweight? I'll offer Beth Ditto, Dawn French, Victoria Wood, and Rusty Lee for starters. Then I'd ask her what's really going on, if those women can be large and in charge and get what they want, and she reckons she can't.

adrian r wrote:

How about simply asking her to find a dozen or so examples of successful women who society would deem overweight? I'll offer Beth Ditto, Dawn French, Victoria Wood, and Rusty Lee for starters. Then I'd ask her what's really going on, if those women can be large and in charge and get what they want, and she reckons she can't.

I LOVE that...... Large and in Charge.... amazing!! This is so powerful.

Once she starts from a place of empowerment then she will take steps to get the life she wants.. it begins with the inside.. not the other way round. So think in terms of helping her achieve resourceful states from which to plan strategies and build confidence in her ability to believe she is already perfect.... the rest is just HOW! That's where you come in with NLP and support.

In addition to some the great suggestions (CT, unpacking "perfect") already offered... I might point to one other aspect that can be addressed. What is the "point" (or "points") that she would like to have for her life? If she can state these as well-formed outcomes, a practical plan might be devised for her to attain them - and she can evaluate what is or is not actually necessary.

Have you tohught about dressing up as a Prince, riding in on a white horse, proposing marriage, then stop look concerned and tell her one of her fingers is too long and tell her you can't wortk with her because of it?

But seriously, why try to persuade her that perfection won't work for you... spend some time discussing how great a perfect world would be... you could prod the discussion with a little chat about communism or The Matrix, or anything else.... Keep arguing the world should be absolutely perfect... draw her in... then tell her you can't talk to her anymore because your skills aren't good enough.... tell her to come back in 5 years when they might be.. see what happens...

9Steps wrote:

...If there is a specific cause (generally found in childhood), then I would probably use hypnosis (more accurately a combination of hypnosis and psychotherapy, therefore appealing to the rational and non-rational parts of the mind simultaneously). This is because the world-view is likely to need changing deep down...

Beliefs often do need changing deep down, and this can be done with eyes open, no psychotherapy required, on my map anyway.

I believe that I can usually do more for someone by knowing the process by which they accomplish their problem (or behavior, or belief) and hold it in place - the "how" of the matter - than by knowing the story of "why" they have the problem. There's not enough difference (in my opinion) between NLP and hypnosis to adequately fill up a flea's navel, and whether someone's eyes are closed or open at the time, I recommend simultaneously communicating with any mind that will sit still long enough to listen, whether I've labelled it rational, irrational, or Fred. This being an NLP forum, you may find more people approaching a client's presenting problem this way than through psychoanalysis.

"There's not enough difference (in my opinion) between NLP and hypnosis to adequately fill up a flea's navel".

Well, this is one respect in which we differ. There is a huge difference. In fact it is a mountainous difference. Hypnosis is an altered state and NLP is a set of tools - some of which work well in an altered state. Not even close to being the same thing although in some respects there is a natural affinity between the 2 things.

"and whether someone's eyes are closed or open at the time, I recommend simultaneously communicating with any mind that will sit still long enough to listen, whether I've labelled it rational, irrational, or Fred. "

Again I don't agree. The NLP model allows for some use of the waking-state trance and there are some tools that can be used in deep trance but in general, deep-trance (somnambulism) is not useful for NLP work. The comment about the eyes being closed was interesting though.

"This being an NLP forum, you may find more people approaching a client's presenting problem this way than through psychoanalysis."

If it were a carpentry forum and people were trying to use a screwdriver to bang a nail in, it would still be valid to offer advice as to the right tool for the right job. I am sure we have all been to those hobbyist clubs where the conversation is limited to interpreting everything in the known universe in terms of the core interest (eg " the world would be a better place if only everyone knew about the *real* power of psychoperistalsis to cure everything from warts to erectile dysfunction to schizophreina"). I didn't think this was one of those - is it?

If we are serious about NLP, and in particular, doing something to contribute to arresting the fall into disrepute of NLP among health professionals, then we must be less zealous and more realistic about what it is useful for. NLP. As powerful as NLP is in the right context, is not a swiss army knife, it is a tool in a toolbox.

In my professional opnion, the use of NLP tools is likely to be wrong or only partially useful for the job described in the OP's post, and to be candid, the idea of telling her about successful fat women strikes me as thrashing about in desperation. Applause notwithstanding. This client appears to have some issues relating to body shape and perfectionism in general, and this is likely to have an origin in self-image and self-esteem issues - in childhood. Telling her it is OK to be overweight because some fat women have been successful frankly seems like a bit of a stretch.

I use NLP extensively in my practice, but it is only one of the tools in my toolbox. Had someone come up with suggestions like re-patterning, SWISH or a specific use of an informal reframing while making extensive use of sub-modalities (all of which could have a role to play in supporting the perceptual changes required), I would be inclined to take the responses much more seriously; as it is I am really inclined to ask how many of us in here are actually professionals in the field.

This is (of course) only a personal opinion but when I see people giving thumbs-downs for perfectly reasonable posts, especially from a new boy, then I have to wonder about the company I have found myself in. I expect some people will huff and puff at my response, and perhaps even suggest I find more appropriate or congenial company, but then that will only detract from the usefulness of the forum to professionals, so it really ought be resisted.

Always assuming you guys are serious about NLP of course.

D

Hello All,

first I want to thank each and every one of you for your insightful and valuable answers!!! I will take my time this evening to study each answer again in depth.

I learnt in my 21 day Master course, that NLP is Modelling of Excellence. It is the capabilty to be able to model patterns which work well, to be able to transfer them into techniques so that others can benefit from it. This is how I try to use NLP in focusing on existing strengths the client already uses in his or her life as well as introducing my client to new ways of experiencing and handling life, and I either design a combination of techniques or a new technique, in view to build on the clients potential and so that s/he can reach his or her wellformed outcome. So the tecbniques as such are not NLP but are only the by product of NLP and in that I believe that a good NLP Practitioner can achieve great results in many areas which present itself.

9Steps wrote:

"There's not enough difference (in my opinion) between NLP and hypnosis to adequately fill up a flea's navel".

Well, this is one respect in which we differ. There is a huge difference. In fact it is a mountainous difference. Hypnosis is an altered state and NLP is a set of tools - some of which work well in an altered state. Not even close to being the same thing although in some respects there is a natural affinity between the 2 things.

NLP isn't a set of tools, that definition of NLP is as wrong as defining NLP as being a mixture of gestalt therapy, family systems therapy and hypnosis. What you need to do is differ between NLP as a meta-discipline (NLP modelling) and the applications that have been coded and developed using the modelling process. Read Edel's post above, it offers a very distinct definition.

9Steps wrote:

"This being an NLP forum, you may find more people approaching a client's presenting problem this way than through psychoanalysis."

If it were a carpentry forum and people were trying to use a screwdriver to bang a nail in, it would still be valid to offer advice as to the right tool for the right job. I am sure we have all been to those hobbyist clubs where the conversation is limited to interpreting everything in the known universe in terms of the core interest (eg " the world would be a better place if only everyone knew about the *real* power of psychoperistalsis to cure everything from warts to erectile dysfunction to schizophreina"). I didn't think this was one of those - is it?

If we are serious about NLP, and in particular, doing something to contribute to arresting the fall into disrepute of NLP among health professionals, then we must be less zealous and more realistic about what it is useful for. NLP. As powerful as NLP is in the right context, is not a swiss army knife, it is a tool in a toolbox.

If you're going to make comparisons and metaphors, atleast compare at the same isomorphic level. A carpenter knows fully well what a screwdriver and a hammer is for, since they are both the tools of a carpenter. Claiming NLP is a screwdriver and hypnosis the hammer, what does that make clinical psychotherapy such as psychodynamics and cognitive behavioral therapy? Other tools in the hands of.. of.. whom? A "professional"? A professional what?

9Steps wrote:

In my professional opnion, the use of NLP tools is likely to be wrong or only partially useful for the job described in the OP's post, and to be candid, the idea of telling her about successful fat women strikes me as thrashing about in desperation. Applause notwithstanding.

Read Adrian's post again. He never wrote to tell the client about sucessful fat women.

Adrian's suggestion is called expanding the clients map of the world by applying Meta-model questions to it. If you want to know more, they are fully described in chapter 4 in The Structure of Magic Vol 1. When working therapeutically I've yet to encounter a client where a single meta model-question (such as "can you give examples of succesful fat women?) that presents one or several counterexamples is powerful enough to change everything around. It is, however, invaluable as a first step to opening a client to possibilities and change that weren't there before the question was asked.

9Steps wrote:

I use NLP extensively in my practice, but it is only one of the tools in my toolbox. Had someone come up with suggestions like re-patterning, SWISH or a specific use of an informal reframing while making extensive use of sub-modalities (all of which could have a role to play in supporting the perceptual changes required), I would be inclined to take the responses much more seriously; as it is I am really inclined to ask how many of us in here are actually professionals in the field.

Judging by your display of knowledge of NLP, or should I say the lack of it. I am really inclined to ask the same question. You seem to know your way with a screwdriver and a hammer, however that doesn't make you a carpenter.

What did you say your profession was?

9Steps wrote:

This is (of course) only a personal opinion but when I see people giving thumbs-downs for perfectly reasonable posts, especially from a new boy, then I have to wonder about the company I have found myself in.

So when you give advice, you refer to yourself as a professional and when people show you thumbs down, you are "a new boy" everyone should go easy on?

9Steps wrote:

Always assuming you guys are serious about NLP of course.

Does being serious about NLP make you a better "professional"?

Hi Edel.

Forgive a brief post after your summation.

"NLP is Modelling of Excellence"

Sorry, but this is wrong and handily makes a point for me that I opined in another thread.

Modelling is what produced NLP, it is not a part of NLP. Modelling has been used for a very long time to enable excellence to be emulated, and while it is useful for many things (business modelling, personal development, sports coaching etc), it is not NLP and is not an NLP technique. It is though, one of those things that has been taught as being NLP by people who (imho) should know better and who really simply want to enlarge their training business. I bet you spent quite a lot of your 21 days discussing modelling and doing modelling, and probably the only reason it will have been in your course at all is the $100+ per student per day the presenters get for pretending it is a part of NLP. Blurring the edges can be profitable.

To be honest, many of the presenters/trainers in NLP would probably include skydiving and fire-walking in their NLP seminars of they thought they could get away with it (oops, the fire-walking thing has been done already).

Sorry, but this is the reality behind the teaching and training of NLP, it is largely a shake-down. Who says so? Bandler says so. Many people say so. The evidence says so. And (of course), most important of all - I say so

D

9Steps wrote:

Modelling is what produced NLP, it is not a part of NLP.

Really? Last year, I asked John Grinder, the co-founder of NLP about how to define modelling and NLP and he certainly had a different definition. Shame on him, he really should know better, having defined the field and all that.

9Steps wrote:

Sorry, but this is the reality behind the teaching and training of NLP, it is largely a shake-down. Who says so? Bandler says so. Many people say so. The evidence says so. And (of course), most important of all - I say so

Which brings me to another question, where did you get your teaching and training of NLP?

Hello David,
to tell you a bit about my training if it interests you before you answer Damians question, I did a nationally accredited NLP Prac course and then an NLP Master course and was assessed at the Prac as well as during the Master evaluation, by the co founder of NLP, Jules Collingwood (plus Roger Deaner who is Master Trainer NLP, NLP Trainer Assessor, Director The NLPTRB(NLP Trainers Board), Member of the Professional Guild of NLPetc.), who trained with John Grinder and currently run the onliest nationally accred. graduate Certificate in NLP:
"Chris and Jules Collingwood are leading the field in australia in quality of NLP training. Inspiritive is the first NLP training company in the world to receive government recognition for its Graduate Certificate in Neuro-Linguistic Programming course. Chris and Jules were certified as NLP trainers by Dr John Grinder." This was in Australiia.
Two years before I did a 18 day NLP course as well as Master Course in Germany, Allgaeu and repeated my NLP training in Australia. I was asked to "redo" the NLP Prac level in Australia again, as I did not meet at this time the Australian government accredited minimum standard through the training I received in Germany.
I know that I can still learn a lot in this area despite having gone through a high quality course and I am grateful for good and helpful input I receive here.

BMcKenna wrote:

There's not enough difference (in my opinion) between NLP and hypnosis to adequately fill up a flea's navel, and whether someone's eyes are closed or open at the time, I recommend simultaneously communicating with any mind that will sit still long enough to listen, whether I've labelled it rational, irrational, or Fred.

Just wanted to quote that again in case someone missed it the first time. I resisted this idea with all my strength the first time I encountered it a few years back and probably the second, third and forth time but it has probably been the biggest breakthrough in my understanding of NLP.

To me it is about flexibility and changes that can take place in many ways that seem different but have a similar structure.

Thanks again Bridget for your comment.