Any feedback on these seminars?
I notice the 3D minders are very abusive towards NLP and DHE on alt.psychology.nlp!

Hi Ian,

Thankfully, that has not happened here. Mostly, the forum, from my point of view, has been about thoughtful and respectful discussion.

From what I know of them, 3-D Mind is essentially a belief change technique whilst DHE is a set of various generative change tools based around idealized human function. I don't see there is being much of a conflict between the two as they really aren't remotely similar, from what I can see. Perhaps other people will have other opinions about how they are more the same then has been obvious to me.

So, sorting for similarity, what is might be same about 3-D Mind and DHE? if we can figure out what's the same, then perhaps we can come up with some criteria of judging the differences between those similarities or areas of overlap.

Be Well,

Michael Perez

Hopefully Tom will post.

Chris

I'm not sure there's any such thing as a 3-D Minder.

I know that there are some people who were not able to get results with NLP who have been able to get results with the 3-D Mind. Whenever they bring up that point they seem to be personally attacked quite often.

The response to a personal attack is usually do retaliate.

When NLP first came out those who were using classic hypnosis and psychology tended to attack NLP because it was new and different.

The ironic thing is that the 3-D Mind is new and different and now some in the NLP world are attacking the process the same way that psychologists attacked NLP.

These attacks seem to take a very predictable form that I hope we can avoid here.

First, they try to classify the 3-D Mind as just being the same as NLP.

When that is disproven, the second thing they do is try to say that the 3-D Mind does not work.

When that is disproven, the personal attacks begin.the 3-D Mind cannot work because I am and asshole or abusive or stupid or I misspell a word.

The biggest difference between NLP and the 3-D Mind is the philosophies that drive the technologies. The two philosophies are entirely different. Some examples of this are:

The past is completely irrelevant. The problem is occurring now so the solution has to occur now. That means things like the phobia cure that has people go back in time would not be an acceptable method in the philosophy of the 3-D Mind.

Recoding the past has nothing to do with the neural connections that are currently activated in the brain.

This also would make Timeline Therapy incompatible with the 3-D Mind philosophy.

Second, the goal of the 3-D Mind is to balance the mind not overpower problems.

This means that things like the swish, compulsion blowup, and anchor collapsing would be incompatible with the 3-D Mind philosophy.

Third, is structure that generates problems and not strategies.

Is the actual neural structure of associated states that generates problems instead of a series of steps that arrive at a problem. that means that chaining anchors and eliciting strategies would be incompatible with the 3-D Mind.

Before learning something such as the 3-D Mind you have to have the ability to set whatever model you are currently using completely aside. If you are constantly cross-referencing to other things you learn you will never be able to learn the model as presented.

I have had NLP practitioners, Master pracs and even trainers that have recognize the differences and are able to use the model independently from NLP and are very pleased with the results.

The reason I am here is that I was challenged to be here to discuss the 3-D Mind in an atmosphere where abuse and name-calling would not occur.

my opinion is this. It's not about being abusive towards the DHE and NLP. What bothers me is the blind devotion to the idea that everything is NLP or DHE to the exclusion of all other things.

Reasonable discussion of this topic is absolutely impossible on alt.psychology.nlp. Hopefully reasonable discussion will be a possibility here.

The someone's agenda is simply to disprove the 3-D Mind then there is not going to be the opportunity for reasonable discussion. If your agenda is to learn about the model and then make judgment after you learn about the model then there will be a great deal of reasonable discussion.

In my opinion the results speak for themselves. I could come up with a wonderful theory and all the scientific backing for that theory in the world. If that theory does not get results is useless.

I will leave you with one final bit of information. It is an e-mail that I received from a therapist just this week who was at our Manchester UK 3D mind Practioners course. Take it at face value. It is an example of the results that we can get.
........................

''Hi all
Just like to share something an experience I had with a client. I saw him for the first time the week before the 3D mind prac. and well, I didn't help him at all that time.

The guy, an engineer in his late 40's, came to see me about involuntary blushing mostly at work, but also in large social gatherings. When he felt his face turn red he became very selfconscious wich accelerated the blushing making him fell even worse.

I tried some NLP techniques but the guy wasn't responding to them and the day after he called me and said that nothing had changed, he had just been to a meeting and his face had been redlike a stopsign. He asked me if I still thought I could help him and we agreed to meet after I was back from the 3Dmind prac.

Well, after the training I was really busy but I fit the guy in my schedule about a month ago, still not really sure what to do with him, but with an agreement with the guy that if nothing chnged this time, he would get his money back. We met and I started out just talking to the guy, casually, and during the converswtion I just kind of hear myself starting to slide in the 5 questions and, to his own confusion he said ''I'm just no good''.

He's really not used to talk about himself like that, and he seemed confused about it.

Well, I stuck with the process, gettng the drivers, got the resource and the drivers for that, balanced it out, did the ecology checks and finished our one-hour session with some more casual talking.

The day after, just the way this guy is, he calls me, ecstatic! ''It must have worked'' he shouts in triumph over the phone. He had just given an important presentation for a new project and he hadn't blushed and he had been calm and confident. He said he didn't know how it worked but was very pleased that it did. I asked him to call me if the problem came back and he promised to do so, and he hasn't called me for a month.

Well, 3dmind did the job where I had failed with other techniques and I'm, just as my client is, very pleased to have learned this process.

Mattias''

....................

So for me this discussion is not about to opposing technologies. It is about verifiable and identifiable results. Hopefully we can avoid a 3-D mind versus anything type of discussion.

that type of discussion usually ends up being confrontational and I frankly don't have time.

Have fun

Tom Vizzini

www.essential-skills.com

I noticed an intertesting response to Chris's message that I would hopefully post. Already it has one thumbs down.

This seems typical of those who don't really want to hear any new ideas. They would prefer that I would not post.

It's a damn shame that some people are so closed minded.

Tom

www.essential-skills.com

Hi Tom,

It's a 3D Mind-related question, so I'm not sure who they felt would be better qualifed to answer it...

I can only hope that they would be equally dismayed about Bandler posing about DHE on this thread.

I think that people can agree or disagree with some of Tom's assumptions or conclusions, but I've got to say that I think it would be hard to imagine a more on-topic post.

Be Well,

Michael Perez

Hi guys,

As you've probably seen it was me who left the thumbs down. This was based more on my personal experiences trying out 3D Mind, using Tom's website and seeing the way 3D Mind discussion seems to have swamped alt.nlp, than it was on the present discussion. These were personal experiences, I admit they are of course very limited, so I don't think there's any need for any present discussion here.

But I do realise I used the thumbs down in a incorrect way, passing comment on an individual rather than on a post, thereby violating the rules of this forum. Therefore I apologize and will not engage in such practise again. I as much as anyone hope this site remains as neutral as it has been so far.

Sincerely,

Alistair

Hey, Alistair,

It's okay my friend, everybody does things that they wish that they could take back later. If I had the chance, I believe that I would call for a redo on 1998...

I admire the sentiment and I'll try to think of you the next time that I screw something up and consider not owning up to it. Takes a bit of courage, in my opinion.

Be Well,

Michael Perez

I think it is a shame that the attacks of already begun.

Alistair has begun by setting the tone. That's one is a very negative tone. I was told that things were different here but apparently not.

Alistair has decided to pass judgment on me instead of addressing the technology.

I did not start this thread. Someone asked a question that I think deserves answering.

if this is to continue to move and useful direction than one we discuss the technology rather than wasting our time with personal attacks.

Tom

www.essential-skills.com

Scroll down:

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/alt...e16d4e272c8da9

Just to be clear, that wasn`t Sofia that made that prevous post, it was me. I didn`t realise she was still logged in.

Tom, regarding personal attacks (A ''thumbs down'' ??? Oh please, is it crime of the century? Sheesh!) I do notice how ''Tim'' or ''Unkah'' tends to go unchallenged by yourself over on alt.psychology.nlp regarding his posts.

Oh, he's a 3Dminder, no?

Andrew T. Austin
alive in Chichester, West Sussex.

And the attacks continue to be off topic and personal. What does this possibly have to do with the original question Ian asked?

Why can't you guys stay on topic?

do you really want this forum to end up looking like alt.psychology.nlp?

If you want me to defend my positions on NLP I suggest you start a new thread. I would be more than happy to go toe to toe with anyone.

If you want to start a thread on my personality feel free. I would be happy to respond to that as well.

If you would like to answer Ian's question, that would be interesting.

this is really sad. It is the same old attack method that is used on alt.psychology.nlp

I had hoped that it would not happen here.

you cannot have a personal attack on NLP. What you can do is question certain aspects of NLP. If questioning is not allowed than I would personally become very suspicious.

But again we are drifting off topic.

Then of course we have the name-calling. Another predictable response to anything that is not follow the NLP doctrine.

hi Andrew

It's not my job to challenge Tim. His style is not mine. I don't completely agree with the way that he expresses himself.

Most importantly I am not him. If you would like to discuss something about me that I suggest you start a different thread.

As far as Tim being a 3Dminder...., possibly responsible for him? Is Bandler responsible for everything that an NLPer has stated on alt.psychology.nlp?

If you want to ask me a question about my behavior, I am right here.

Tom

Hi All,

If people would like to discuss things being posted on another forum, might I recommended that they post them on that forum where they would at least be on topic and might stand a better chance of being understandable to anyone who happens to be reading?

Talking about people who aren't even forum members here and complaining about their posting behavior elsewhere seems to be a *wee* bit off the topic of the thread as well.

USENET is unmoderated and you can certainly feel free to post anything you'd like there.

Might we consider either returning to discussing the topic of the thread were something perhaps just a *tiny* bit less tangentially related?

Be Well,

Michael Perez

what is the NLP doctrine?

Let's switch the topic.

This isn't about who said what about whom or in what way...let's forget that because all it does is degenerate into garbage and a complete waste of time for everyone involved. If you want to feel terrible about something walk out into the world and look around you'll find something.

Turn on the News you can see wars going on, children losing legs and other limbs. If you want to really feel terrible how about going down to your local burn center and look a human being who has been horrifically deformed.

If that still isn't bad enough, go out to your local street corner see how many people you can find destroying themselves and their bodies injecting posions into them.

Like I said if you want to feel like garbage go for it. Leave yourself with all those bad and nasty feelings, it's your choice. Babies die everyday and nobody gives a shit about them, children been drowned in bath tubs by their mothers. Entire families get slaughtered. Children and Wives get raped while husbands and brothers are forced to watch.

Get your priorities straight!

If that's what you want those negative feelings go for it. But if your gonna do it really do it.

Or...

we could steer this thread into a more productice direction.

Chris

The NLP Doctrine.

I beleive that's...

'First at Sea,

First on Land and

First by Air'

But I could be wrong. Natural Law Party, right?

Be Well,

Michael Perez

It's nice to have someone lighten things up.

Chris

Good Job Michael!

One of his shorter efforts too Chris ;-)