We have heard about 3D Mine, what about DHE experiences of training?

Hi Tom,

Next year would be good and Newcastle upon Tyne would be fabulous... yeah I'm cheeky but as we say up here shy bairns get nowt.

Penny

LOL!!! We were there

Kim had to go to Seahouses to see the damn Puffins!

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Tom

Maria wrote:

''We have heard about 3D Mine, what about DHE experiences of training?''

How about answering the simple question I asked you. You made several accusations and claims. Now I think it is time to back them up.

What is you knowledge of the 3D mind Maria?

I woudl appreciate you not ducking the question.

Tom

Alistair wrote

''Just because people don't agree with something doesn't necessaily mean they take it to be a threat.''

Here's the problem for me. I can't see any disagreement. What I do see our personal attacks and fraudulent claims by people who have never studied the 3-D Mind at all.

I've been to the NLP seminars and seen the behavior of some people. They treat MLP as the holy Grail and Richard Bandler as Jesus Christ. At one seminar on lady almost physically attacked Kim for even suggesting that Bandler didn't look like he was feeling well.

There is a sector of the NLP community that is incredibly cultlike. I know they are the most extreme but they also seem to be the most vocal.

If you want to disagree with something I say than a well laid out explanation of the disagreement would make for an interesting thread.

''Your language seems to indicate you perceive discussion of 3D Mind as a pitched battle, you against everyone else. Not a very pleasant image to create for oneself.''

I want to respond to this and more detailed because it is such a flawed statement. It doesn't matter what my language would seem to indicate. The true answer to your implication would have been to ask a question instead of make an assumption based upon letters on a screen.

It is an incredibly flawed information gathering technique to look at my language through your filters of reality and then make a judgment about what kind of images I might make for myself.

To me it is an example of what happens when your agenda leads your opinion rather than asking questions and gathering facts before you generate an opinion.

On the other hand mine opinion is based upon fact. Here is a quote from you:

''I don't think there's any need for any present discussion here. ''

I think that your opinion is very clear. To turnaround and then pretend that the animosity that you have is my imagination is a little bit disingenuous.

I have also noticed that there has been no discussion about what I've actually responded to. I've written several long posts with information that seem to have been ignored.

Hopefully more open-minded discussion will occur. It seems that some people here are interested in that. For those who are not to suggest that they follow another thread.

I would like to thank those who have participated in this thread with genuine interest and open minds.

Tom

Tom I admire your inventiveness...and I applaud your self belief.....but I do find your aggressive stance , quite hard to take, on this forum...it is almost as if you are daring people to disagree with you !

If that's the case...I disagree with you ! but not your product....because I don;t know enought about it....and you are not taking the opportunity, to whet my appetite for it !

At one point , I was going to try and find premises, on Merseyside , cheaper than manchester or London....and I still might....but carry on demanding answers off Maria c ...and I will quickly go off the idea !

Maria , is simply getting her information , from other posts on this thread...she does not claim to be an expert....so chill !

You are not the first person to challenge NLP, with new ideas...but you may be the best 1 Don't spoil yourself !

Peter Wrote:

''Tom I admire your inventiveness...and I applaud your self belief.....but I do find your aggressive stance , quite hard to take, on this forum...it is almost as if you are daring people to disagree with you !''

With all due respect, Where have I been aggressive? Maria made a claim and I simpley asked her to back it up by asking what her actual knowledge was. It is a question she refused to answer. No aggression there.

If I were you I would have asked IF I was being aggressive. What was my intent.

Was Maria aggressive in her opinion about the 3D mind? I could read it that way.

Please read this carefully. On the internet it can be a mistake to put an imagined tone to words on a page. It has lead to many misunderstandings in many groups.

So let me ask you this. If I stated that NLP was just watered down hypnosis, what question would you ask me in order to find out what I based that claim on?

Of course the answer would be to ask what my experience with NLP was. Would you be aggressive if you did ask?

Second question. If I refused to answer OR did not have any experience with NLP, how much wieght would you give my opinion.

This is the internet even though it is a privately run group. Anyone can say anything or make any claim. How are we supposed to sort valid claims from invalid claims?

I think these are interesting questions. They start with asking one simple thing.

What do you base you opinion on?

Now, have you read this with an imagined aggressive tone or with the calm tone it was intended to have?

Tom

www.essential-skills.com

Tom , I have read this with I think a calm tone...I think it was the number of your requests, to Maria C , that intimated an aggressive/pissed off (pardon the language), angry attitude. Perhaps the number of requests , should not intimate this /

I find any improvements i can make to my results , interesting, and like you I rejected a lot of what I was originally taught of NLP , in my Hypnotherapy Course...taking only the skills I felt were believable, practical and useful. The other skills, which most NLPers seem to use mostly....were (perhapsin my ignorance), thrown to one side , for the proven methods of Hypnosis and Hypnotherapy...which I have generally found sufficeient for all I need.

A lot of people seem to take Maria C , as a threat , or as a provocateur....but I think they fail to take in the facts that she is not an English speaking person (I deduce) , and perhaps struggles with her English language. I am sorry Maria , if i am wrong making this assumption....it is only my impression. Good luck Tom...keep plugging...

Hi All,

With regard to questions raised in the last few posts, I think that silence on a question can be as informative an answer as whatever someone may write. Just my opinion!

I think that Tom has been more than clear what the intent is behind his writing and so I don't know if further analysis of his choices in writing style is that useful in exploring the topic of the thread.

So, back to the topic, anyone know both 3D Mind and DHE well and have any comparisons of these two very different schools of thought, perhaps with an eye toward areas of overlap, whatever those might be?

Be Well,

Michael Perez

I can only speak as someone who has was at the DHE 2000 seminar.

I cannot figure out what the seminar was about. If you ask me to give you a good definition of what DHE is I can honestly not tell you.

The process itself is rather simple. Find the strategy you have for doing something. find out how each step makes you feel. notice which direction the sound comes from with the step. Then apply better feelings to each step or eliminate one step and replace it with something that feels better and install them with the sound coming from the same direction as the old feeling.

This is referred to as building a better machine.

It is a very strategic model of change for mind with an auditory anchor chain of auditory submodalities.

This is different than the 3-D Mind and that the 3-D Mind model is a structural model not a step-by-step strategic model.

The 3-D Mind focuses on how the mental environment you live in his constructed of a variety of interconnected beliefs. These beliefs support that mental environment.

those beliefs are constructed of a group of associated states. The states are a specific formula for anyone belief.

Problems happen when you have a problem belief that taints your mental environment.

One belief affects all beliefs.

the states are at the foundation. When you change the foundation everything from the bottom up goes through a change.

Did you change the associated states the problem belief changes. When the problem belief changes the mental environment changes.

The key is that we filter the entire world through that mental environment. When that filter changes the entire world changes.

that is the main difference between a strategic change model any structural change model.

Have fun

Tom

www.essential-skills.com

Tom,

First of all let me make clear I do not know your 3D Mind model so I won't talk about it, but I am a DHE Trainer so I will talk about that... DHE is not about figuring out a strategy and it does not find out any step by step procedure already there. So that appreciation is innacurate.

As Richard Bandler has said many times a major difference between NLP and DHE is that in NLP we use sequential elicitation (ie. strategy elicitation) and in DHE we use simultaneous elicitation.

In other words DHE gets all the information at once. And for that we requiere a profound state which is what most of the exercises in the workshop are design to train everyone to do.

Interesting anecdote is that according to Eric (Robbie) back in the late 80's when he described to Richard what he (Eric) does (simultaneous elicitation in an altered state) to get the submodalities using the submodalities eye accesing cues, Richard began to play with the idea and from a calculation he soon came up with DHE. Of course there is more to DHE than that.

But I wanted to start out by mentioning that DHE is not about step by step strategies. That is NLP!

What is DHE about?

Let me quote Richard here:
''The focus of Design Human Engineering is to begin to engineer in a generative and evolutionary way, be developed understanding of simultaneous models. That is, how all these things fit together to create the performance that is possible given any model of the world.''

What he refers to later on in the text is the simultaneous interaction between such things as timelines, meta programs, beliefs, strategies and states. Of course this is just a brief description of what DHE is about but it may begin to bring clarity.

Again I do not know what the 3D Mind is about so I do not know what differences or similarities both models may have.

Anyway got to run to leave Eric at the airport but will return with more information about what is DHE.

Be well

Gabe

Thanks for the response Gabe.

Unfortunately for me, my experience is quite different.

It seems that some people have really hard time describing what DHE is. So it is very hard to comment on. I

What I can say is that the 2000 seminar that I attended was based upon a strategic model. There was no simultaneous solicitation and altered states.

Maybe it has changed since then.

I look forward to your future posts. One thing that I would like to see is clarification of what DHE is.

I don't want to get into a 3-D Mind versus DHE discussion. There is no winner if you try to get into that kind of contest.

As someone who has studied NLP since 1992 and studied the original DHE tapes and attended the 2000 seminar I can tell you that I am not ignorance on the subject of DHE.

When I can still can't tell you is what DHE is.I wish I could.

Unfortunately your description of simultaneous interactions is very vague.

Hopefully when you have more time there will be more clarity.

I look forward to it

Tom

My experience of DHE was Chicago 2000.
In my humble opinion I found DHE to be the 'missing link' of NLP.

I know, I know, not specific enough. Of course if you want specifics you should experience it first hand or listen to the tapes as I do regularly.

DHE gave me the - I want to say tools - but atually it was more like the instantaneous capability, to do in a couple of days, what in my opinion, might take years with NLP, without having to try to copy someone else and do it kind of as good as them.

So why DHE? Well, if much of NLP is modelling, and you've always had that niggle somewhere in the back of your mind that you can never model with 100% acuracy, you'll enjoy DHE. If you're someone who,like me, basically can't be arssed with remembering and recalling sequences, you'll enjoy DHE. If you're someone who is great at using your NLP skills with others, but who hasn't gotten their own 'house in order'...you'll benefit from DHE.

Altered states?

Well it was Richard telling stories for several days at a time...I think that pretty much guarantees an altered state.

It 'ain't just ''spin the feeling'' it's really looking at the capabilities within you and going 'what can we get out of this baby?!'

The answer?

A shitload.

Specifics? Think of a time when you last felt that feeling like you were about to giggle unontrollably...for me it was way back in church...Christmas Eve...what is it about church? singing those depressing sounding hymns...good god, and my brother keeps looking at me in that way..and I know that if I look at him, that surging sweet feeling in my throat is going to spread through my mouth too quickly for me to control and I'll absolutely lose it...

So when you remember YOUR time, when you remember when YOU nearly lost it in a fit of giggles, faced screwed up, diagfram spasming uncontrollably...where did the feeling begin?
where did it go next? what happened to it on the way?where did it go and how did it go?

Once you know that you can consciously augment it...play with it...attach things to it...

...aaaww...you gotta experience it.

J.

Quick response since I have to set up the room for the workshop starting tomorrow.

Richard decided to make DHE something that people couldn't get stuck on the procedure or the theory. His frustration at the time was too many NLPers caught up in discussing NLP and accumulating information rather than using it.
So DHE is designed to give the participant a experiences which among other things we (trainers) work on generalizing the skill of simultanoeusly obtaining information from others. Some report this specific result by saying 'my intuiton got amazingly better' other say 'I developed some psychic skills'... well bottom line they are doing without having to explain it (or know it consciously) some of what the simultanoeus elicitation is about.

Many detractors by coincidence after DHE develop new fields, models, applications and more. I guess it is just a coincidence that in the advertising it says you'll become more creative and will have generative change.

I was on the 2000 training in Orlando and Chicago (both times as staff memeber) plua my first contact with Richard was the original DHE tapes. Somehow I noticed the difference. Maybe it was me. Meaning I got the simultaneous elicitation which was different from sequential (step by step) elicitation of NLP.

But I also got that many exercises were designed to get us there eventually... call it pace and lead!

Anyway, I know I won't convince you. Yet I do want to say we were at the same program and got something very different and perceived something very different.
Maybe that is why in 2000 Richard made me a DHE Trainer, he probably noticed I got consciously what other didn't.

I know you don't link 3D Mind to DHE or even NLP but just out of curiosity... what year did you came up with it?

Be well

Gabe

Oooops...

On the second paragraph I rushed... it should say:
'we (trainers) work on participants to help them generalize the skill of simulatenously obtaining information from others'.

To me you're right Gabe!

I came up with The Spike Method...and the things DAILY that evolve from that after DHE.

what did 'it' do. Personally it was just leaving behind modelling (not always) and moving to generating this stuff!

I now have the idea that we all know everything anyway...KNOWING is about finding the neural pathway that leads to KNOWING and being...

this is why I like foul language...all intense experiences require foul language to properly express...DHE is abit like that.

J.

Hi Gabe,

Thanks so much for providing a bit more information on DHE.

Just out of curiosity, do you think that Richard will ever consent to a more explicit explanation of the principles behind DHE for those who might perhaps benefit from a more traditional learning experience, or do other DHE trainers like yourself provide more of a traditional learning structure perhaps?

I'm really not trying to make a values judgment between trainings that lean towards 'unconscious installation' versus more traditional explicit teaching, I'm just curious about whether or not this is or will be an option for DHE.

Thanks again!

Be Well,

Michael Perez

Maybe Michael maybe Richard will do that someday.

Meanwhile, yes, I do give more conscious mind and traditional learning structure BUT something can't be taught traditionally. Just ask eric and his sunmodalities eye accesing cues!!!

He once was asked for the step by step formula and he simply replied it is not a linear model!

But I do promise more info will come in the future. I even wrote a bit on my second book which I expect to have published in english
next year. So far it is only in spanish.

Got to run again

Gabe

what I find so interesting about this are the consistent reframe of what learning should be.

with all due respect this is the same vaporous explanation but I get about DHE every time the subject comes up.

I really don't buy into magical skills explanation that is given whenever DHE is brought up as a subject. It seems like either a straight answer can't be given or won't be given.

Even the audacity of making claims that take credit for anything that happens years after a DHE training. This goes back to the old saying that if it happens within 20 miles of you, take credit!

What is the proof of this?

Faith.

We have to have faith that something magical is being installed by the DHE trainer.

There is almost the religious aspect of this. All we have to do is believed and DHE savior will magically install skills.

He will do this without any explanation.

I think this is where the contrast of styles come into play. I was able to explain the 3-D Mind to a lady in a beauty parlor in five minutes. She understood the basic concepts. She was excited about something that finally made sense. It was not magic.

What we have is the difference between something that can be explained, the 3-D mind, and something that can't.

Again keep in mind I have been to a DHE training. It is the one that is being sold as DHE. I also have the original tapes that I have listened to know less than 40 times.

Tons of amusing stories.Not one tangible skill.

My DHE training consisted of four days of basic NLP. One day on strategy elicitation and one day of recording the new strategy into a MiniDisc player.

Maybe I'm different in that I am not a follower. I want explanations that make sense. Most of all I want tangible results.

At the DHE training that I attended there was an interesting phenomenon. Bandler had everyone hallucinate binoculars. While in the seminar room everybody acted amazed at what they could see.

During the break I could not find one person who actually got it to work. They all stated that they did not want to look silly because they were the only ones that it did not work for.

Not one person went outside the seminar room and tested out their new skill of binocular eyes.

I also saw a miracle cure for someone's eyesight. And there have the guy walk around for four days without his glasses on. The problem that was that for four days we had to lead this guy back-and-forth to the restaurant for lunch because he couldn't see.

just stating that the model is designed so that people can't get stuck on it is a terrible presupposition. The presupposition is that if you give people knowledge that they will get stuck on that knowledge. That treats people like they're pretty stupid.

Just stating that it is not a linear model does not excuse someone from telling you what step one is.

In short, the explanation given so far just seems to be a very long excuse as to why there is no explanation to be had.

Just stating that something can't be taught traditionally makes no sense to me. This comes very close to the unconscious installation myth that many people in NLP try to use as a teaching method.

My biggest problem is that in order to accept the explanation that there is no explanation you have to be a follower. You have to believe. You have to have faith.

Most of all, to question, demand answers, not have faith and place your belief where there is proof, is looked down upon.

my personal position is this. When someone can honestly and openly answer the very simple question about what DHE is that I personally will have a whole lot more interest in it.

Tom

What makes you think we want your interest in DHE? Some people should stay away from DHE! You are definetily one of those.

And when you say 'a lot more' you presuppose a little interest that I think you should get rid off... forget about DHE you don't think it works, you won't get our explanations (maybe because of your own meta programs to examine information or our meta programs to explain it) so it makes no sense to even argue about it. I am NOT small chunking it for you and making it into a linear procedure so that you think you get it. Small chunking it and precedurizing it is the opposite from what we do in DHE.

You presuppose what you were able to get is all there is to it... well, maybe the rest of us who have gotten much more were just allucinating what was really there!

When someone doesn't have what it takes... there is nothing else to say. And YES I am saying the whole 'if it is possible to someone it is possible for the rest' is a bunch of crap. Good luck with your 3D Mind.

You think DHE is sequential, so be it... the less people gets interested the more a few of us will have skills other won't have. LOL

Be well

Gabe