Seems to me to be a diluted form of NLP just under another name

Maria stated:
''Seems to me to be a diluted form of NLP just under another name''

OK I will ask again. What do you base your opinion?

I find it amazing that someone would make such claims with little or no actual knowledge.

Tom

John wrote:

''One thing that is said is that it is results that count. An NLP’er might argue that it is achieving the outcome that is important.

Is that the same thing on not? Hey ho round we go again.''

Many times in this thread I have pointed out stark differences that some poeple seem to ignore.

I think some NLPer's are so overly invested emotionally in NLP that they connot consider any other possibilities.

In this way NLP has been a more limiting model than other models.

The problem is that not everything is NLP. If you cannot grasp that one concept then you are truly stuck.

Havr fun,

Tom

www.essential-skills.com

Maria,

Since you've never learnt it or used it, I can understand how it may seem to be that to you.

In NLP, there is a foundational principal that, as I interpret it, teaches us to reserve those kinds of judgements until we have specific experience, and even then to be cautious about what could be premature cognitive commitments, generalisations or mind reads.

This is the same principal that teaches us to calibrate body language on a case by case or even a minute by minute basis. The moment I decide 'Crossed arms means closed to new ideas' the one who might be closed off to new learnings might be me...

For example, there are many people who believe that NLP is just a diluted form of Hypnosis under another name. Is that true? In their experience, it *is* true, because that is what they have limited their experience to be, by the cognitive commitments that they've already made.

I've heard NLP compared to General Semantics or even Scientology using similar language. True or not true? Depends on who you ask.

Be Well,

Michael Perez

Michael wrote:

''The easiest way to tell if you're still afraid of elevators is to take a ride on an elevator''

Michael is correct. If you look at the link I posted with the elevator phobia you will see that the way I checked was to immediately send him to an elevator in the hotel.

He spent 20 minutes riding it.

I know that seems a bit obvious. I wonder why it wasn't.

Have fun,

Tom

www,essential-skills.com

Vince Wrote:

''Imagine how our clients would respond if they heard all of this petty bickering.''

Indeed. Nice post Vince.

There are a few poeple here who are genuinely curious. Those are who I hope look into the 3D Mind.

Others just want to defend their investment in NLP. That seems a bit closed minded.

I have to wonder, why does the 3D Mind get percieved as such a threat? Why does it have to be put into the frame of the 3D mind VS NLP or anything else?

Personally I have not written anything here that I would be embarrassed for a client to see.

I have honestly answered every question asked of me. Thre is not one that I have not responded to.

On the other hand. Most of my explainations have been ignored. Instead the same refrain happens over and over.

It is just NLP

It doesn't work

Personal attack

It is getting a bit borish.

Have fun

Tom

www.essential-skills.com

Hi All,

Let's try jumping categories a bit to see if we can look at this just a slightly different way.

For those of you who find that the distinction whether or not something comes from NLP to be valuable, let's take a look at two belief change techniques that are said to be by their creators NLP techniques and use some of the same kind of criteria that seem to need to be implied in this thread to compare and contrast them with each other.

So, let's take Robert Dilts' Walking Belief Change technique and pit it against Connirae Andreas' Core Transformation technique.

(Round One, Fight!)i

Which one is ripping off the other? I mean, how many belief change techniques to you need? Isn't one just trying to cash in on the other?

(Round Two!)i

Which is better in all cases? What rating do we give to each one on the scale of best to worst? Which should one should we choose not to use in favor of using the other exclusively?

(The Final Round!)i

Do *any* of the presuppositions in these questions have to necessarily be true? Are any of them even necessarily helpful?

Can't both of these techniques have their own pluses and minuses and their own appropriate contexts in which they can be optimally used? Can't the use of these techniques complement one another? Don't we believe in the concept of learning as many tools as we possibly can and using them more appropriate, has the context dictates?

Now generalize that thinking out and see if it still applies. What you think?

Just some food for thought.

Be Well,

Michael Perez

Chris Wrote:

''Tom,

Would it be fair to say that 3D Mind and DHE operate in pretty much two different domains? Now what I think is interesting about 3D mind is that it accomplishes something that all the different styles of NLP, i think in my opinion attempt to do.''

That is a good perspective. The thing is that you can chunk up high enough to make any two things connected.

A tree and an airplane have nothing really in common. Until you build a house out of wood that then they are 2 things that people can go into.

Does that make a tree a plane?

'' I took that to mean he was trying to make it more user friendly to novices.''

That has been my biggest complaint. NLP has become so cumbersome that to reach a level of competence can take years.

You should not have to be more than a novice to get results.

People want something that gets immediate results in a way that is easy to understand. The 3D mind fills that need pretty well.

The one thing that no one has addressed here yet are the results that the 3D Mind gets.

One point I have to make is this. If NLP, DHE and 3D Mind all get the same results there is still one huge difference.

You can learn the basics of the 3D mind in one hour for only 70 dollars. Add to that, we have a yahoogroup where we freely give away all the updates of the model without requiring anyone to buy more videos. We also use that group to personally help people when they are stuck on a problem.

All for only 70 dollars.

I have heard of 12 weekend long seminars on just the meta model.

NLP has become clunky and cumbersome exactly because those marketing it have tried to make it all things for all people.

Have fun

Tom

www.essential-skills.com

Have fun

Tom wrote:

>I have to wonder, why does the 3D Mind get percieved as such a >threat?

Just because people don't agree with something doesn't necessaily mean they take it to be a threat. Your language seems to indicate you perceive discussion of 3D Mind as a pitched battle, you against everyone else. Not a very pleasant image to create for oneself.

Alistair

Let's take one final set of examples just to see if they might apply here.

I know a number of people who are involved in Ericksonian hypnosis in its original form, pre-NLP. I know at least a couple of them who tend to look at NLP is being a bastardized form of their own art with a hodgepodge of other little doodads stolen from a dozen other fields tossed in for good measure.

They despair that interest in what they do has been seriously damaged because of the existence of NLP and the fact that literally thousands of people who are completely untrained (by their criteria) in hypnosis are using a dangerous tool with no real idea about what to do in case something goes wrong or if they wind up psychologically damaging their patients.

If you can step out of your pro-NLP mindset for a moment and see things from their point of view, what must things look like? Specifically, when you see NLP from their point of view what does that look like?

Now while I happen to believe that while there may be a grain of truth in what they say, overall, I'd have to say that I believe that their inability or unwillingness to step away from their own perceptual position creates much of their view of NLP and that that view does not seem to conform to my own experience.

So, when I speak with these people I could choose to leap onto the white steed of truth and joust endlessly with them to prove that my point of view is superior to theirs. To tell you the truth, I just don't find a lot of value in that process. I'm not going to, in all likelihood, convince them of anything. the most likely outcome, from my point of view, is that I would wind up charging back and forth on my horse until eventually I get stuck in the rut dug up by the horse's hooves.

Instead, I choose to respect their map of the world and understand it for what it is an a value a their comments in light of that map. I also tend to avoid needless confrontations when I know that there aren't many chances of changing either side's point of view.

Instead, I speak to them as a fellow hypnotist and by addressing them in that context, I and able to benefit from their knowledge with nary a squabble in sight.

We all can have our own reasoning in our own choices about these things, and as long as you act within the confines of mutual respect, you're certainly welcome to do that here.

So, when we choose to look at other things that may come after NLP, might not this be valuable to keep in mind?

Be Well,

Michael Perez

I learned the basics of NLP from a friend for free!

People across the planet use NLP in lots of different situations. You seem to latch on to NLP to try to give publicity to 3D Mine

Maria,

I think it's great and wonderful that a friend of yours taught you the basis of NLP for free. I'm not really sure what you meant by mentioning that here, but it certainly does provide me with some context in helping me to understand your posts here.

In the same way you say that people across the planet use NLP in lots of different situations. I'm not sure what you mean here. Are you trying to say that NLP is the only thing they can be used in many situations? Perhaps you can clarify what you meant by that.

As you learn more about NLP, you'll probably learn that your previous post included what is commonly referred to as a mind read. It's quite good that you qualified your statement with the word 'seem' because that's what we call a 'softener'. It it's used sometimes when you're going to say something that people might take offense at. However, in this case, it still doesn't away with the notion that you're ascribing things to Tom that may or may not be true.

I'm sure that as you learn more about NLP, you'll learn more about how to phrase your language in ways that are less prone to be taken as incitement.

Be Well,

Michael Perez

''Just because people don't agree with something doesn't necessaily mean they take it to be a threat. Your language seems to indicate you perceive discussion of 3D Mind as a pitched battle, you against everyone else. Not a very pleasant image to create for oneself.

Alistair''

I asked an honest question. I do not see any battling at all other than the personal attacks. If you have an image in your mind then it is your responsibility not mine

Tom

Tom,

I've learnt quite a lot from this thread already, but before i 'crank-up' my credit card on your 2 - tape set........

Do you have any links to any articles or research on the 3D Mind ?

Regards

DJ

Maria wrote:

''I learned the basics of NLP from a friend for free!

People across the planet use NLP in lots of different situations. ''

Sorry. I don't mean to be rude but you seem to be ducking the question.

You made a statement about the 3D mind just being watered down NLP.

I asked you to tell me what you knowledge of the 3D mind was that allowed you to make such a judgement.

You have completely ducked that question with a statement about your training ''free'' training.

So how about a straight answer? What is you experience with the 3D Mind?

''You seem to latch on to NLP to try to give publicity to 3D Mine''

I have latched onto nothing. This is a baseless accusation. I answered a question that someone posted here and nothing more. I have answered any question asked without hesitation.

I did not begin a thread about the 3D Mind but am more than willing to share information about it here if it is of interest. If it is not of interest then we can discontinue this thread.

Now....What is you experience with the 3D Mind?

Hi Alstair,

People tend to look at things from a mindset that is created by context and rapport. Allow me to illustrate what I mean.

I think that a great example of this, if you're familiar with the technique, might be Robert Dilts' Slight Of Mouth patterns.

In order to successfully use these patterns as intended, you generally have to have built up a considerable amount of rapport with the client and then find just the right moment in the conversation to use them. Otherwise, that technique will earn you a punch in the mouth rather quickly...

In a similar manner, the meta model when used incorrectly or without a great deal of rapport and empathy can lose you a client or even start a fight!

So, when we move into a discussion and point out in someone else's language uses what can be reasonably perceived to be as a negative thing (pitched battle or bunker mentality) in that context, chances are that such a statement *is* going to be perceived as an attack.

As this is the mindset you seem to be pointing out, I don't imagine that you'd want to provide an inadvertent opportunity for reinforcement, assuming for a moment that it was in fact case.

I've found personally that conversations are not dissimilar from client sessions. What we can say in one context and get one response to can evoke an entirely different response in a less favorable context.

Just some food for thought!

Be Well,

Michael Perez

''I've learnt quite a lot from this thread already, but before i 'crank-up' my credit card on your 2 - tape set........

Do you have any links to any articles or research on the 3D Mind ?''

The 3D mind is only about 4 years old. So there is no research on it yet. All I have to qualify it are results.

We do have 100% money back guarantee

If you are interesten I will posta short blurb about the 3D Brain Model that Dr Ken Guiffre created. He is a neuroscientist that we have been working with and he has been teaching me stuff for several years now. It is his model that makes the 3D mind so much different than NLP.

Have fun

Tom

Hi Tom,

There certainly is a lot of positive testimonials on the website. When is your next practitioner training event in the UK and how much is it?
( the one on the site has already gone, unless perhaps I am looking in the wrong place)
I expect the only way to understand it really is to learn it and play with it. As a teen coach, I appreciate that the more tools I have the better lol.

Be Happy

Penny

Hi Michael,

>As this is the mindset you seem to be pointing out, I don't imagine that you'd want to provide an inadvertent opportunity for reinforcement, assuming for a moment that it >was in fact case.

You're right, by pointing out someone else's perceived mindset I am in fact guilty of my own accusation. To get beyond a mindset one cannot work within that mindset to try and find a solution, one must find a new mindset.

>Just some food for thought!

Indeed, I realize I have a lot of ground to cover morally. That's the principal reason of me wanting to learn NLP.


And following on from the 'Where's the Love' thread, may I just say what a pleasure it is to have you participaing in this forum. You seem to me to be the very heart of this discussion group, indeed to embody the true spirit of NLP.

Regards,

Alistair

I'm not sure we'll be back until next year. We are thinking of holding down in Brighton but if there are any suggestions for a good venue I would appreciate it.

London is very pricey. manchester was OK but not really much more affordable than London.

Maybe we can get there around the beginning of next year.

Thanks

Tom