what do you think of what this guys is saying?

is he right of just talking bull [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4ALoW_yppI]YouTube - Scientology IS Hypnotic Mind Control Part1[/ame]

Saying it is using NLP is laughable and this person is obviously rather clueless, Scientology came out in the 50's incidentally long before NLP.

You can stick in and apply NLP terms or say people are using elements of it in any so called 'Mind Science' - EST, Scientology, Silva Mind Control, Lifespring, etc; when they are dealing with the mind primarily it is easy to apply any NLP label or say - look they are using this NLP technique here, when such is certainly not the case.

In saying that no doubt Bandler & Grinder had heard of Scientology and looked into it, as have others such as Tad James (his books reference L. Ron Hubbard books).

Scientology is essentially -

fortune cookie type self help stuff (that you could buy a book for £10 at Waterstones, saving you mult thousands on Scientology prices)

+ Auditing very crude psychotherapy (you recall past incidents & go over them again and again in more detail whilst hooked up to the E-Meter basically a crude lie detector test that measures tiny electrical impulses)

+ Lots of gobledygook technical jargon, they even have their own dictionaries filled with it.

That is it, no more, no less.


Here is video on Scientology with a young Paul Mckenna in it :

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqNFYJiGEjM]YouTube - HYPNOTIC MIND CONTROL in the Church of Scientology[/ame]

and what is wrong with talking to Ashtrays and shoting commands at them? LOL.

Only thing that matters is that scientology is "useful" in whatever context right? lol

The similarities are striking

The mind control aspect is controversial though. Pseudosciences such as NLP and scientology are better explained with reference to social psychology and simple effects such as cognitive bias and the simple effect of ritual.

We do know that getting people to go through visualization rituals using pseudoscientific jargon (trigger words as he put it) can help to create a situation where any changes in state of mind can make the subject mistakenly believe he has been improved by that pseudoscience.

Its likely that neurolinguistic programing is using the same pseudoscientific model as dianetics (the background of scientology).

Lots of pseudoscientifically applied jargon:

Dianetics Glossary - Dianetics Terms & Definitions
Honest Abe's NLP Glossary : A-K

Individually or in a client practitioner mode, the rituals are performed, and there is a change in state (often involving a re-examining of a past event and some sort of dissociative state). A change is made, and the client believes the change in state means an improvement (mostly not the case). The actual result is a mindless and circular belief in the pseudoscience.

Any stepping out of that circular belief will involve dissonance (discomfort) and a feeling of hopelessness. Stepping out of that circular belief means looking at independent evidence of the actual ineffectiveness of the method. So the adherent tends to stay in the circular belief, uses all sorts of wild accusations, pseudoscientific thinking etc to argue against the independent evidence.

Stepping out of the circular belief and accepting the independent evidence for a longer period of time leads to a re-adjustment to life without the pseudoscience, and a recovered cognitive ability.

Its helpful to learn about pseudosciences, but you don't have to spend your time and money to actually do them.

Learn about lobotomy by all means, but don't buy into a lobotomy.

one of the lasts vids of Derren brown explores mirroring taken to the extreme and I remember having read that one of the techniques of scientology is to have you sit in front of someone for hours just staring.

I assume that a process of mirroring occurs slowly on those instances as shown in DB experiment and that the outcome is utilized by the sect.

that would be an example of the techniques "shared" between NLP and sects, hopefully with a different outcome in sight.

The general outcomes are much the same:

Leverage the alleged amazing human potential, access the power of the subconscious, overcome blocks to success and genius, and so on.

There will be a lot of people there with perfectly good intentions. There will also be a lot of people in neurolinguistic programing and scientology who are onto the scam and continue with it nevertheless.

The problem is, from the beginning in pseudoscientific developments, there is a mindset that is set up to ignore or dismiss disconfirming evidence. The well intentioned end up fooling themselves, and the conscious hucksters are covering up and feeding back more bullshit.

Pseudosciences often focus on the "vision of human potential". They fail to carefully check the validity of their own ideas, fail to check the results properly, or they deliberately sidestep the issue.

David Huntington is utterly clueless on NLP, and also Scientology, yet feels he is an expert on both. He has NEVER attended any courses on either, and his info. comes from primarily surfing the net. Take with a 'hefty pinch of salt' any remarkable astonishing conclusions he comes to e.g. Scientology & NLP 'The similarities are striking', eh no they aren't! I've studied both extensively & have met and know numerous Scientologists they are certainly not very similar, only a complete Ignoramus would conclude to the contrary.

Scientology is 100% a Cult - you cannot leave very easily. It maintains strong psychological hold over followers. In addition you leave, all your friends and people left in Scientology wil completely blank you. As a Scientologist you receive 50%+ reduction on courses but THE CATCH - you leave you owe all the money (full price for courses) back to them and they can bankrupt you as a result.
NLP you can leave anytime, and do what you want.

Scientology has a multitude - hundreds of different courses to get you up 'The Bridge' and after 'All Clear' there are a further 8 OT levels (this far). To get to the top level costs Hundreds of thousands in money.
NLP has basically only 2 levels Practitioner & Master, that's it. Trainers Training if you want to become a Trainer. Other courses on specific elements.

Scientology witholds truth from its followers and feeds them a load of untrue BS - they tell followers there are 12 million+ Scientologists worldwide, the Truth? - under 500,000! (easily provable too, Census figures in U.S. show around 300,000 their stronghold, UK Census around 5000). They even censor the Internet - at their places you cannot access negative sites about Scientology, special software is used. They obviously lie about L. Ron Hubbard's history & life.

The founder of Scientology L. Ron Hubbard was 100% undisputed a charlatan out to make a fast buck, he lied constantly about his life and achievements, he was 'just plain nuts' when you listen to many of the people who actually knew him, and not in great health either.

etc, etc.

Hey Peter

I don't need to be a scientologist to pass comment on scientology, and neither does anyone else here. As I said, you don't need to have a lobotomy to understand one. The same goes for neurolinguistic programing.

The thread started off with an explanation of NLP in scientology. I don't think it involves that mechanism. The reason people fall for neurolinguistic programing and scientology is because of the general outcome of amazing human potential, the promised access to the unconscious, the effect of pseudoscientific jargon and rituals, the bias towards confirmation and so on.

I'm explaining why people fall for pseudoscientific cults in general.

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/People-Believe-Weird-Things-Pseudoscience/dp/0716733870"]Amazon.com: Why People Believe Weird Things: Pseudoscience, Superstition, and Other Confusions of Our Time (9780716733874): Michael Shermer: Books[/ame]

The Skeptic encyclopedia of ... - Google Books

Science and Pseudoscience in ... - Google Books

As I said, you don't need to have a lobotomy to understand one. The same goes for neurolinguistic programing.

They call this Unconscious Incompetence.

Unconscious incompetence The individual neither understands nor knows how to do something, nor recognizes the deficit, nor has a desire to address it. See also : Dunning-Kruger effect

Four stages of competence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Not knowing about a topic does then only limit you to spouting off second hand (at best) knowledge and claiming it to be yours, it also only allows the user to see black and white in all situations as they lack the ability and knowledge to shift their thinking away from the one and only way they know.

I dont need to read Shakespere to know it is shit, my mate told me it is.

Matt.

The persuasion tactic you are attempting is the same sort of persuasion tactic that a scientologist would attempt:


“I dont need to read Shakespere to know it is shit, my mate told me it is.”
“I don’t need to be an NLPer to know its shit, my mate told me it is”
“I don’t need to be a scientologist to know its shit, my mate told me it is”


Matt, you are falsely accusing and misrepresenting me. You are the same as the scientologists in the street who shout false accusations at people who question their methods.

We know scientology is pseudoscience because according to the assessment of neuroscientist and similar researchers and practitioners, it promises amazing implausible ability, is full of erroneously applied scientific sounding jargon, it fails conceptually and in testing, and the excuses the proponents give are similarly as facile, evidence dismissing and as pseudoscientific as the ones you have attempted.

Neurolinguistic programming is pseudoscience for the same reasons. Neuroscientists, neurolinguists and similarly qualified researchers and practitioners have assessed neurolinguistic programming and concluded it is just as implausible in claim and concept, has similarly erroneous scientific sounding jargon, and has failed controlled testing etc....


People continue to get suckered into scientology and neurolinguistic programming (and other pseudosciences), because of the reasons I have outlined above. I am not claiming originality in those reasons. They are also outlined by the neuroscientists and similarly qualified experts and practitioners who have assessed the pseudoscientific subjects of neurolinguistic programing and scientology/dianetics. You don’t have to believe me. Look it up and see for yourself.

David,

Do you know what a lobotomy is? the cruelty of the practice? the inhumaness and the sucking of life from hundreds of people everyday and the damage that it caused?????????

please do not disrespect the thousands of mental illness patients who literally lost their sense of self and almost all of their will to live by referring to lobotomies in your posts. It is no laughing matter that psychiatrists severed people's frontal lobes... it is horror story that you have no right to link in any way to your personal intentions!!!!!!!!!!

I am quite upset at your flagrant misuse of a very sensitive topic. But you wouldn;t know that would you? Just think before you write for once, geesh!!!!!

Rob

P.S. You are still on ignore so I cannot read your reply. DO NOT private message me.

P.P.S. Can we PLEASE stop quoting hypnofact!! or can we set up the site so that when I block someone's messages they cannot be seen even when quoted?

Hey David,

You have probably been asked before, but having missed it I would like to ask you what motivates you to participate actively in a pseudoscience forum like this while at the same time expressing yourself the way you do about NLP.

I remember a SAscha Baron Cohen clip as his carachter Bruno, where he interviews a "gay converter" in america, that is a catholic priest that had especialized himself in converting gays. One couldnt help but linking that fixation to something deeper within the man, and that exactly was capitalized in the interview as no one like Sascha Baron Cohen can do.

What is your interest in NLP or in debuking it or both if any? What are you trying to accomplish for yourself (or others) in this forum?

Would appreciate your feedback,

Thank you,

Roberto

Rob. How about the cruelty of deceiving people using pseudoscience? Teaching them terms and concepts that when repeated betray a ridiculous level of ignorance and gullibility. Getting them to repeatedly perform scientologyesque rituals in the misapprehension that they are doing something valid with neuroscience's conception of submodalities. And getting them to spend time and money on it!

Hi Roberto

I had a look at NLP a decade or so ago, and was wondering if things had moved forward. Alas, no, the dodgy diagrams still appear in the books, the unvalidated concepts still abound, the misconceptions about unconscious learning are flying about like phantoms in a scifi horror, and the pseudoscientific excuses are just incredible.

The last point is keeping me here. Its fascinating how stuck in the circle people can be. From scientologists to NLPers to energy therapists; they claim such amazing flexibility of mind, but if they are encouraged out of the circle to look at the independent testing, the automatic response is fear, dismissal, denial, and some fascinatingly erroneous thinking.

David,

You talk the same load of old cobblers in every thread you post in, also highlighted with the 'I don't need to have done.......' to know about it, no you don't but since you cannot mention any contact whatsoever with either NLP people or Scientologists, where are your opinions coming from? One can bet from the net or books, and on Scientology the bulk of it Anti material.

Akin to getting all your info. about Opus Dei from Dan Brown's books & movies, and Conspiracy sites, etc - hardly unbiased, not accurate, and some just fanciful nonsense.

Okay so you've never done any Scientology or NLP courses, never met and talked at length with people from either, and are utterly clueless on both. You think anything not recognised by Science as 'Science' is instantly Pseudo Science - even though again you are incredibly ignorant on the theory and applications of either.

As pointed out before (which you neatly dodged questions on), Science does NOT know everything, how do you know that something that is considered Pseudo Science or impossible will not become reality tomorrow and be accepted as 'Science'? Science is not static and growing in knowledge all the time.

Very amusing, you talk of Pseudo Science and Science, and very convieniently ignore the history of Psychiatry with mass deaths, torture, and crazy experiments - much of which is regarded as being Pseudo Science today! Go read about the history of your great 'Science' psychiatry; look at what it is doing in the world today - still using electric shock therapy (pure Psuedo Science!) to treat people, and heavily using psychiatric drugs (incl. Ritalin on kids, etc). As stated before NLP DOES NOT have a dark history like Psychiatry, it has not been responsible for multiple deaths and torture, and it does not advocate drugs for any condition or crackpot theories like electric shock therapy.

You forget too in so called 'Science' there are many conflicting theories - Richard Webster:'Why Freud Was Wrong: Sin, Science and Psychoanalysis' Many experts today regard many theories such as those from Freud outdated erroneous nonsense.

Freud's theories and research methods have always been controversial. However, Freud has had a tremendous impact on psychotherapy. Many psychotherapists follow Freud's approach to an extent, even if they reject his theories.
One influential post-Freudian psychotherapy has been the primal therapy of the American psychologist Arthur Janov.
Freud's contributions to psychotherapy have been extensively criticised by some scholars and historians, and defended by others.
Critics include H. J. Eysenck, who wrote that Freud 'set psychiatry back one hundred years', consistently mis-diagnosed his patients, fraudulently misrepresented case histories and that "what is true in Freud is not new and what is new in Freud is not true".

NLP (The Pseudo Science according to the eminent Dr David Huntingdon F.O.A.K. - Fountain of All Knowledge) - NO major conflicting theories, some trainers emphasis things over others but in general no wildly conflicting theories. NO use of drugs to combat any condition or any advocating their use.

VS

Psychiatry ('Science' according to Dr David Huntington) - wildy conflicting theories which many agree and disagree with / Pseudo Scientific crazy treatments in past and present resulting in mad experiements that killed thousands and torture, treatments today that are blatant Pseudo Science e.g. Electric Shock Therapy / heavy use of psychiatric drugs (global racket making billions) - advocated for almost every condition known to man, frequently used on kids - all with heavy side effects that have caused great problems for people using them, etc, etc.

I see your point NLP is just doing so many terrible things in the world, and has such a dark history - it must be a Pseudo Science & we should only stick with Science LOL!

David,

Try reading the following on your so called 'Science' :

PSYCHIATRIC DRUGS: Cure or Quackery? Psychiatric Drugs

Psychiatry's Electroconvulsive Shock Treatment (ECT): A Crime Against Humanity Electric Shock Therapy

The Case Against Psychotherapy Psychotherapy

Does Mental Illness Exist? Psychiatric Theory

25 Reasons Psychiatry Must Be Abolished 25 reasons


''Because psychiatry is not a medical science. ''

Because psychiatry is quackery, a pseudo-science which lacks independent diagnostic tests, testable hypotheses, and cures for "schizophrenia" and all other types of alleged "mental illness" or "mental disorder".


And this is your so called 'Science' whilst NLP is Pseudo Science???????????

Peter, you are misrepresenting me. You are behaving just like the scientologists when they try to misrepresent people who question their claims. You are presenting a false and mindlessly blinkered either-or argument to support your mistaken belief in a pseudoscience.

You are also presenting a scientologyesque anti-psychiatry argument. Now, I am not for the science of psychiatry in particular. But I am certainly not actively writing or arguing against anything that has serious research and well founded concepts. I am all for the results presented here:

Clinician's guide to evidence-based ... - Google Books

Neurolinguistic programming is in the same league of discredit as electric shock therapy. NLPers are without a hope. Anything else would be better. Evidence based would be sensible.

David,

A little tip - NOT one single person on here takes you remotely seriously, and you are widely regarded as just being a Troll.

You just come out with the same old lame points every thread you are in and are unable to answer any direct questions and come up with the same excuses everytime too 'you're misrepresenting me...' etc.

Do you regard Psychiatry as a Science & therefore Scientific? ''Now, I am not for the science of psychiatry in particular. But I am certainly not actively writing or arguing against anything that has serious research and well founded concepts''. Is it a Science or Pseudo Science in your opinion?

If Science you agree with all it's practices & theory? Just to be clear on where you are coming from.

Regarding Positive Thinking, Motivational, and Life Planning, etc - you recommend what exactly over NLP? Which courses or people specifically?

Peter

People are obviously taking me seriously. They are also taking the research seriously. The reactions of people here are strong indicators of this. When they look at the research that I have posted (the links, peer reviewed citations, book references etc) they do tend to react with an irritated realization that they have bought into a pseudoscience. And, interestingly you tend to react by promoting the standard scientologist’s rant about psychiatry.

My recommendation is to stop relying on gurus for motivation. You can use hypnosis to help you in your efforts to give up smoking for example. It greases the wheels. But you need to be pretty motivated already for it to be effective. The idea that you can have propulsion system level of motivation is utterly misleading.

Avoid hyped and jargon filled nonsense, go for strength, willpower and effort, and maintain a flexible strategy and a willingness to face independent perspectives (such as independently published reliable research).

Life planning, thinking, using your imagination, learning to step out of your comfort zone and look at the more independent research and independent perspectives are important. Use sources that make accurate claims, and well verified concepts. Avoid those who use vacuously erroneous concepts, misapplied interventions, and hyped-to-the-rafters rituals dressed up as technology.

If you are interested in the WOW of living, read some books on astronomy, nature, neuroscience, literature, architecture, art, etc. Go ahead and read quantum theory. But don’t mistake it for quantum healing, quantum NLP, or any other such quantum nonsense.

If you want to feel more connected, go and find some friends and make sure they are the sort of people you have enough of a connection with you don’t need to try out daft and dubious stuff such as mirroring or desperate embedded commands. Go for a life where you can deliver on your statements, terms, and claims.

David,

So from your reply to me, let me rephrase and recap and correct me if I miss, you are here participating actively because:

1 you came to check if things changed from the time you first encounter NLP.

3 You are fascinated by human behaviour in particular regarding flexibility, beliefs and processes.

3 you want to help people stuck in those patterns to realizing they are being fooled.

What brought you to NLP 10 years ago?

Your disapointment that time had to do only with what you found by researching or were you looking for a solution for a problem and NLP didnt help?

Regards,
Roberto

check the above

Hi Roberto.

Well, getting back on subject, I have learned a lot more about circular beliefs.

I have also learned more about how pseudoscientific subjects tend to grow and evolve within certain movements in history. So, scientology or dianetics is a major first mover for a lot of the other financially oriented pseudosciences.

Subsequently, EST, neurolinguistic programing, the new age self help seminars and book section in general tends to follow on from scientology. More jargon is created, there is a lot more doubtful association with neuroscience and quantum physics etc, but in essence the strategy is about the same.

So for me, its not a disappointment at all. Its interest and realization.

From a practical hypnosis and cognitive strategies standpoint, I am sure I will be like a lot of the lurkers on this forum.

The task is to read the discussions, and sift the real strategy from the dross. Literally to remove the neurolinguistic programming claims and misattributions out of the descriptions and end up with a valid and accurate picture of what is really going on.