what do you think of what this guys is saying?

is he right of just talking bull [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4ALoW_yppI]YouTube - Scientology IS Hypnotic Mind Control Part1[/ame]

Saying it is using NLP is laughable and this person is obviously rather clueless, Scientology came out in the 50's incidentally long before NLP.

You can stick in and apply NLP terms or say people are using elements of it in any so called 'Mind Science' - EST, Scientology, Silva Mind Control, Lifespring, etc; when they are dealing with the mind primarily it is easy to apply any NLP label or say - look they are using this NLP technique here, when such is certainly not the case.

In saying that no doubt Bandler & Grinder had heard of Scientology and looked into it, as have others such as Tad James (his books reference L. Ron Hubbard books).

Scientology is essentially -

fortune cookie type self help stuff (that you could buy a book for £10 at Waterstones, saving you mult thousands on Scientology prices)

+ Auditing very crude psychotherapy (you recall past incidents & go over them again and again in more detail whilst hooked up to the E-Meter basically a crude lie detector test that measures tiny electrical impulses)

+ Lots of gobledygook technical jargon, they even have their own dictionaries filled with it.

That is it, no more, no less.


Here is video on Scientology with a young Paul Mckenna in it :

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqNFYJiGEjM]YouTube - HYPNOTIC MIND CONTROL in the Church of Scientology[/ame]

and what is wrong with talking to Ashtrays and shoting commands at them? LOL.

Only thing that matters is that scientology is "useful" in whatever context right? lol

The similarities are striking

The mind control aspect is controversial though. Pseudosciences such as NLP and scientology are better explained with reference to social psychology and simple effects such as cognitive bias and the simple effect of ritual.

We do know that getting people to go through visualization rituals using pseudoscientific jargon (trigger words as he put it) can help to create a situation where any changes in state of mind can make the subject mistakenly believe he has been improved by that pseudoscience.

Its likely that neurolinguistic programing is using the same pseudoscientific model as dianetics (the background of scientology).

Lots of pseudoscientifically applied jargon:

Dianetics Glossary - Dianetics Terms & Definitions
Honest Abe's NLP Glossary : A-K

Individually or in a client practitioner mode, the rituals are performed, and there is a change in state (often involving a re-examining of a past event and some sort of dissociative state). A change is made, and the client believes the change in state means an improvement (mostly not the case). The actual result is a mindless and circular belief in the pseudoscience.

Any stepping out of that circular belief will involve dissonance (discomfort) and a feeling of hopelessness. Stepping out of that circular belief means looking at independent evidence of the actual ineffectiveness of the method. So the adherent tends to stay in the circular belief, uses all sorts of wild accusations, pseudoscientific thinking etc to argue against the independent evidence.

Stepping out of the circular belief and accepting the independent evidence for a longer period of time leads to a re-adjustment to life without the pseudoscience, and a recovered cognitive ability.

Its helpful to learn about pseudosciences, but you don't have to spend your time and money to actually do them.

Learn about lobotomy by all means, but don't buy into a lobotomy.

one of the lasts vids of Derren brown explores mirroring taken to the extreme and I remember having read that one of the techniques of scientology is to have you sit in front of someone for hours just staring.

I assume that a process of mirroring occurs slowly on those instances as shown in DB experiment and that the outcome is utilized by the sect.

that would be an example of the techniques "shared" between NLP and sects, hopefully with a different outcome in sight.

The general outcomes are much the same:

Leverage the alleged amazing human potential, access the power of the subconscious, overcome blocks to success and genius, and so on.

There will be a lot of people there with perfectly good intentions. There will also be a lot of people in neurolinguistic programing and scientology who are onto the scam and continue with it nevertheless.

The problem is, from the beginning in pseudoscientific developments, there is a mindset that is set up to ignore or dismiss disconfirming evidence. The well intentioned end up fooling themselves, and the conscious hucksters are covering up and feeding back more bullshit.

Pseudosciences often focus on the "vision of human potential". They fail to carefully check the validity of their own ideas, fail to check the results properly, or they deliberately sidestep the issue.

David Huntington is utterly clueless on NLP, and also Scientology, yet feels he is an expert on both. He has NEVER attended any courses on either, and his info. comes from primarily surfing the net. Take with a 'hefty pinch of salt' any remarkable astonishing conclusions he comes to e.g. Scientology & NLP 'The similarities are striking', eh no they aren't! I've studied both extensively & have met and know numerous Scientologists they are certainly not very similar, only a complete Ignoramus would conclude to the contrary.

Scientology is 100% a Cult - you cannot leave very easily. It maintains strong psychological hold over followers. In addition you leave, all your friends and people left in Scientology wil completely blank you. As a Scientologist you receive 50%+ reduction on courses but THE CATCH - you leave you owe all the money (full price for courses) back to them and they can bankrupt you as a result.
NLP you can leave anytime, and do what you want.

Scientology has a multitude - hundreds of different courses to get you up 'The Bridge' and after 'All Clear' there are a further 8 OT levels (this far). To get to the top level costs Hundreds of thousands in money.
NLP has basically only 2 levels Practitioner & Master, that's it. Trainers Training if you want to become a Trainer. Other courses on specific elements.

Scientology witholds truth from its followers and feeds them a load of untrue BS - they tell followers there are 12 million+ Scientologists worldwide, the Truth? - under 500,000! (easily provable too, Census figures in U.S. show around 300,000 their stronghold, UK Census around 5000). They even censor the Internet - at their places you cannot access negative sites about Scientology, special software is used. They obviously lie about L. Ron Hubbard's history & life.

The founder of Scientology L. Ron Hubbard was 100% undisputed a charlatan out to make a fast buck, he lied constantly about his life and achievements, he was 'just plain nuts' when you listen to many of the people who actually knew him, and not in great health either.

etc, etc.

Hey Peter

I don't need to be a scientologist to pass comment on scientology, and neither does anyone else here. As I said, you don't need to have a lobotomy to understand one. The same goes for neurolinguistic programing.

The thread started off with an explanation of NLP in scientology. I don't think it involves that mechanism. The reason people fall for neurolinguistic programing and scientology is because of the general outcome of amazing human potential, the promised access to the unconscious, the effect of pseudoscientific jargon and rituals, the bias towards confirmation and so on.

I'm explaining why people fall for pseudoscientific cults in general.

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/People-Believe-Weird-Things-Pseudoscience/dp/0716733870"]Amazon.com: Why People Believe Weird Things: Pseudoscience, Superstition, and Other Confusions of Our Time (9780716733874): Michael Shermer: Books[/ame]

The Skeptic encyclopedia of ... - Google Books

Science and Pseudoscience in ... - Google Books

As I said, you don't need to have a lobotomy to understand one. The same goes for neurolinguistic programing.

They call this Unconscious Incompetence.

Unconscious incompetence The individual neither understands nor knows how to do something, nor recognizes the deficit, nor has a desire to address it. See also : Dunning-Kruger effect

Four stages of competence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Not knowing about a topic does then only limit you to spouting off second hand (at best) knowledge and claiming it to be yours, it also only allows the user to see black and white in all situations as they lack the ability and knowledge to shift their thinking away from the one and only way they know.

I dont need to read Shakespere to know it is shit, my mate told me it is.

Matt.

The persuasion tactic you are attempting is the same sort of persuasion tactic that a scientologist would attempt:


“I dont need to read Shakespere to know it is shit, my mate told me it is.”
“I don’t need to be an NLPer to know its shit, my mate told me it is”
“I don’t need to be a scientologist to know its shit, my mate told me it is”


Matt, you are falsely accusing and misrepresenting me. You are the same as the scientologists in the street who shout false accusations at people who question their methods.

We know scientology is pseudoscience because according to the assessment of neuroscientist and similar researchers and practitioners, it promises amazing implausible ability, is full of erroneously applied scientific sounding jargon, it fails conceptually and in testing, and the excuses the proponents give are similarly as facile, evidence dismissing and as pseudoscientific as the ones you have attempted.

Neurolinguistic programming is pseudoscience for the same reasons. Neuroscientists, neurolinguists and similarly qualified researchers and practitioners have assessed neurolinguistic programming and concluded it is just as implausible in claim and concept, has similarly erroneous scientific sounding jargon, and has failed controlled testing etc....


People continue to get suckered into scientology and neurolinguistic programming (and other pseudosciences), because of the reasons I have outlined above. I am not claiming originality in those reasons. They are also outlined by the neuroscientists and similarly qualified experts and practitioners who have assessed the pseudoscientific subjects of neurolinguistic programing and scientology/dianetics. You don’t have to believe me. Look it up and see for yourself.