Gabe, you humble man you, I heard about your program in London. You have a bunch of English people running around speaking covertly. I can't wait until I can be so lucky.
And you're so diplomatic too.

I'd be interested to see people speak covertly also...

Do they cover their mouths up?

MrDigital wrote:

I'd be interested to see people speak covertly also...

Do they cover their mouths up?

Actually I believe they wear ninja masks.

Hey - great discussion.

Bit tired - but I didn't want to go off on holiday without sharing some more thoughts...especially seeing as how my comments seemed to re-ignit what I personally think is a fascinating subject.

I LOVED the McDonalds analogy James...and it's particularly acurate to me mate, because there are a bunch of people who bitch about the quality of the food in there...and guess what??

THEY'VE NEVER EVEN F**KING EATEN in there!!

(To me that's about as close to Stadium mentality as it gets...shoudl they shut the f**k up until they've dined there....yup - they should - especially if they call themselves burger-lovers)

Yeah McDonalds is shit...I know it's shit...but maaan that hasn't stopped me turning to the golden arches after a heavy night on the tequila...and man...then there's nothing else I'd wish for haha

And if some 'posh' restaurant owner starts mincing about how great there food is and how much skill and talent went into making the food - well - I gotta be honest with them and say..."sure, but right now I want a Big Mac!"

Does McDonalds 'lower the standards'? I dunno...but it doesn't prevent me seeking out a decent cordon-bleu when I want a finer dining experience now does it...

well - does it?

...and it sure as hell doesn't lower the standard for BURGERS IN GENERAL either.

The problems, to me start when people start worrying too much about what the other chef's up to...

...jeez, I'm fuckin hungry!

James

(interestingly - once called "The Gordon Ramsay of NLP & Coach Marketing!" hahaha) bye.

Hey mate,

jameslavers wrote:

Does McDonalds 'lower the standards'? I dunno...but it doesn't prevent me seeking out a decent cordon-bleu when I want a finer dining experience now does it...

well - does it?

No it doesn't. Because you as a consumer KNOW that McDonalds is just fast food.

You know the difference. You know that McDonalds and [name any good restaurant here] are ... not ... the same ... thing. You can differentiate. In all likelihood, you've probably also eaten out somewhere other than McDonalds.

And you probably know that Burger King is in the same general class as McDonalds, and you may have a preference between the two. Or maybe not.

But you know that they are a qualitatively different type of place than [name any good restaurant here]. You are an educated consumer. You can choose to go to McDonalds or you can choose to go to the nice Thai place down the road. In each case, you know what to expect.

And you know that even if McDonalds has a new Thai chicken burger on their menu ... it's not going to be the same as eating at the Thai place.

That's the difference.


Cheers,

James T

Jonathan Altfeld ,

Appreciate if you are not going for same things as Mckenna or Robbins, and your reasons why. Jonathan Royle on the other hand most certainly is, and jealous of people like Mckenna.

Tad James has many great students and trainers, try :
NLP Training Courses - Neurolinguistic Programming from Performance Partnership, London UK
David Shephard and so many more out there.

Of course any large training group will have people that aren't that good, it's inevitable NLP Life Training (Bandler / Mckenna, etc), Tad James Co. , etc. People may not take in or fully comprehend the matereial on a course, or simply not practice it and forget parts overtime and so many other factors.

Regarding specific elements you feel Tad James trained students do not know? Well, those parts are in the curriculum & training materials. Go ask David Shephard or phone him direct on above, he was trained by Tad James and is very highly regarded and renowned.

Anyway, who have you trained of note? How many students do you have out there with NLP Pract./Master/Trainers qualifications? I'm assuming lots or even if few some really high quality and knowledgable people. Only I couldn't find links to any of your top students on your site, but maybe I just missed them.

2. I don't enjoy enormous crowds of students. If offered a chance to speak on Robbins' own stage, I'd turn it down. It doesn't hold interest for me -- to be that famous a speaker. It's partly why I've waited so long to write a book -- fame isn't one of my values at all.

Regarding that part if you were offered a book deal like Paul Mckenna's for millions, you would turn it down would you?

Or say any of your releases currently suddenly outsold 'Personal Power' (Anthony Robbins) , you would not welcome it?

Concerning teaching small groups I agree it is best, and Tad James does not train big numbers in Practitioner or Master at one time, the numbers he does have there is himself, his wife Adrianna & often other assistants to help them throughout the courses.

Have you ever seen Tad James Pract. or Master DVD series? You should. Edited of course (couldn't put all 7 days every hour on them) but you can see he is Master Trainer and leaves nothing out.

Which of these have you personally met ? :
NLP Training, NLP Trainers

Or have you met David Shephard The Performance Partnership?

As Joe Bloggs the Tad James student that could have did the course years ago and never used or practiced the material since doesn't offer an accurate reflection of Tad James students as you mention them showing generally 'mass incompetence' , etc.

I am with you on this one james T!

By the way, I love McDonalds even if I also go every once in a while to "good" restaurants as well.
It must be that where I live we have no McDonalds (nor Burger King, KFC, Pizza Hut, etc)... or perhaps it is that I like simple unpretencious fast food every now and then, in my case specifically to remember my teenage years when I was young, naive and with lots and lots of energy.
But the very best option for me now is home-made food... I love what I get for food when I am home. No chef can do what I get at my own home. Something about home.

And this post is not written as a metaphor as much as many might think it is.... or is it?

Cheers,
Gabe

PS - what do you mean by covert Tony? I think some might be simply telling irrelevant stories but as the label says these are just irrelevant.

Dragon05 wrote:

Jonathan Altfeld, Anyway, who have you trained of note? How many students do you have out there with NLP Pract./Master/Trainers qualifications? I'm assuming lots or even if few some really high quality and knowledgable people. Only I couldn't find links to any of your top students on your site, but maybe I just missed them.

Know any of these people?

My students over the past 12 years in the UK have included Michael Beale of PPI, Andy Smith of Coaching Leaders, Jamie Smart of Salad, Mark Hayley, Nigel Heath (NLP South), Chris Morris of NLP Connections, Michael Kold of NLP Europe, Peter Freeth of excellerate, Michael Christon of Enhance in Edinburgh Scotland, Jeffrey Goodwin of NLP Scotland in Glasgow, Michael Roach of Predatory Enlightenment, Dave Gould of deep-trance.com, and 10's, perhaps 100's, of top UK-based NLP coaches today.

There are lots more -- but that should do for a start. If you know any of these people, feel free to ask them yourself about their experiences, about what they gained.

I've done a good number of certification trainings over the years in the USA, one in the UK, & my KE (Knowledge Engineering) material has been included in a range of other trainers' Master Prac courses in the UK AND Australia as their 'explicit/analytical modeling' component. But I have a serious preference for the type of targeted topical course that solves a given gap or problem.

I do not certify trainers -- and personally I believe anyone but the founders while they're both still alive (and maybe a *couple of others* who've been around from the very beginning -- and I'm not talking about Tad here) certifying trainers is ridiculous and hasn't served the field well. From an agreement made on the 'sale' of the Society of NLP in 1986(?), I believe Tad has the legal right to do so... but I wish he'd take responsibility for polluting the field so flagrantly and stop doing so. Obviously you'll disagree, and you're free to.

The vast majority of my courses are short, targeted courses designed to enhance and train specific skills. Some are exploratory, designed to push the envelope, explore the edge. Because of this specific niche I typically fill, it's common for me to get students coming in the door who aren't entirely happy with their prior training. That's not the only 'type' of student I get -- certainly I get people who are immensely happy and are just looking for more, or more of an edge, or who've heard about the kind of targeted, personalized work I do.

In the UK alone since 1997 I've run 25 (yes, twenty-five) 3-day or 5-day courses mostly in London, some in Oxford, some in Manchester, some in Glasgow. I've visited the UK to run an average of 2 courses per year over the past 12 years. I was absent from the UK in 2008 due to tightening work visa regulations at Heathrow; was turned away at Heathrow last year after some 20-odd trouble-free visits. I've since gotten a work visa, which was never required of or suggested to me prior to 2008. So now I'm coming back in July 2009 for my next course.

I particularly like this quote on Michael Roach's site:

I’d met Peta Heskell, the original Flirt Coach, on one of the NLP training's and she ran regular monthly evenings where she invited well known international quality NLP trainers to come and speak. There I met NLP Trainers like Jonathan Altfeld who teaches NLP more applied to real life than the classroom setting. Jonathan really loves training and it shows, he’s as happy continuing the training after the intensive day long class with the group while we eat and drink into the night. I can absolutely credit Jonathan with a quantum leap in the development of my NLP skills, I’ve been to his really advanced trainings, some of which were even experimental for him at the time and also have had the privilege of assisting on others. Part of what gives Jonathan an edge is he has a background in Knowledge Engineering which is what he was professionally doing before he became interested in NLP. Knowledge Engineers capture the essential qualities of a person or group and encode that information in an expert system… Truly precision work.

james_t wrote:

Hey mate, No it doesn't. Because you as a consumer KNOW that McDonalds is just fast food...

James (& Gabe, seeing as how your 'with him' on this)

I think this is dangerous ground.

What I'm inferring from you is that the consumer is this great uneducated mass - ignorant to the qualitative differences between (better stay with metaphor - it's safer eh?) McDonalds & El Buli

This is perhaps where we disagree.

I think you're maybe underestimating the savvy of your punters mate.

Now - I don't train NLP - but I do work with Trainers who train NLP.

Without exception - of the many DOZENS of NLP Trainers I've been exposed to in my work - NONE of them get customers who haven't already had some degree of exposure to NLP...

...be that through books / tapes / CD sets...

...be that through a one-day course...

...a 'free' event of some sort...

The 'consumer' it would seem is simply not willing or ready to invest time, money or energy to experience something she hasn't already got some kind of reference of potential value for.

===========

Now I'm a blinkered old bastad I admit - but here's what I'm getting from alot of what's been written here.

To those who are in the camp of 'the poor poor consumer doesn't know any better and is getting a lesser quality NLP and they don't even know it' - I say HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT....SPECIFICALLY:

And yes, lets talk numbers here.

These 'big' guys are training lets say (we'll make up a number) four thousand people a year....how many of those are YOU actually exposed to...400??

100??

40??....how many.

To those who believe that the 'big' guys aren't transferring skills or knowledge effectively or at a high enough level - I say AND WHO DIED AND MADE YOUR CRITERIA SO SPECIAL PRECISELY [not to mention WHAT criteria anyway]??

(and before you rebuke with some defensive huff and puff - consider this)

WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT?

'cos to me you've got a number of choices...(and probably a few I'm not seeing)

1. Shut up and admit you've never been to a 'big' guys training - so you have no real clue...and sorry but the "I judge by the student" thang doesn't wash...it's called being-a-person...people who have passed their driving test can still go on to be crummy drivers - I don't give a shit how good a driving instructor you are.

2. If you're on such a mission to 'stamp out mediocrity' or 'raise the standards' - then quit bitching (internally or externally) and market yourself better so you can re-educate that dumb herd of customers (for those who don't know me - that's sarcasm) - by reaching more of them before they succumb to the mediocre eh?

3. Get out of your own intelligent skull once in a while and realise that the 'big' guys are better at giveing people what they WANT - rather than what you think they SHOULD HAVE -- and that maybe there's something to be learnt here that doesn't involve:

MIND READING OTHER TRAINERS - TRAINING EXPERIENCE AND SKILL TRANSFERENCE.

THINKING CUSTOMERS ARE DUMB AND DON'T KNOW ANY BETTER.

MAKING THE ASSUMPTION THAT A 'BIG' EVENT = BAD


====

The wealthy thing in my first post was a red herring - but it sure sparked response eh?

James.

If your role model for learning French was the one that figured most in the media, you may well imagine that Peter Sellers as Inspector Clouseau is a good exemplar. You would be wrong in that assumption.

Similarly, believing that some big ticket events are going to offer the highest quality NLP purely and simply because they are the big ticket events is wrongheaded. There may well be some overlap between quality and price and scale of event, but not enough to draw useful conclusions.

Attending a free presentation on NLP and buying a self help book introduces you to the idea that NLP exists, and the claims of some of its proponents. But that doesn't give you the capacity to distinguish sincere from bogus, quality from crap, any more than Clouseau will give you a grounding in French.

And at that point, you're left to the marketing claims trainers make. Some of whom make remarkable promises that it takes actual experience of NLP training to realise are unsustainable. And people at that point will have their one go at NLP and decide they know it all, or at any rate enough. Or dismiss the scene on the basis of a crap trainer. Or get curious enough to find out more. Which is where people discover about the boutique end of the market, where quality trainings are conducted at a smaller scale. That's my experience anyway, and if I can come up with any means of supporting such to market themselves to appeal more widely, I will.

===

I have put no red herrings in this or other posts - but it sure is handy to claim that you planted them eh?

gabe wrote:

I am with you on this one james T!

By the way, I love McDonalds even if I also go every once in a while to "good" restaurants as well.
It must be that where I live we have no McDonalds (nor Burger King, KFC, Pizza Hut, etc)... or perhaps it is that I like simple unpretencious fast food every now and then, in my case specifically to remember my teenage years when I was young, naive and with lots and lots of energy.
But the very best option for me now is home-made food... I love what I get for food when I am home. No chef can do what I get at my own home. Something about home.

And this post is not written as a metaphor as much as many might think it is.... or is it?

Cheers,
Gabe

PS - what do you mean by covert Tony? I think some might be simply telling irrelevant stories but as the label says these are just irrelevant.

There really exists a land without McDonalds and Burger King and KFC? Where is this magical place? How do I get there? Do I have to die or eat psilocybin mushrooms to get there?

By covert I mean that they are becoming masterful storytellers and helping countless numbers of people make effective changes in their lives via these stories that they masterfully tell.

Tony,

I was teasing you about the covert thing, I understood, you allowed me to play a little with my metaphor... and yes this place without McDonalds exists it is 2 hours outside of Mexico City. haha

James L,

I am shocked by your possible assumption out of:

Without exception - of the many DOZENS of NLP Trainers I've been exposed to in my work - NONE of them get customers who haven't already had some degree of exposure to NLP...

Are you assuming the trainers in YOUR market are the rule world wide?
Because let me tell you over 80% of the students that attend a prac program in latinamerica has never done a thing with NLP or researched a thing about it. Almost none of them has read a book and the few that have had some exposure they got from a non-NLP trainer who told them NLP is something it is not at all. They were told "you should learn NLP" and so they did without having a clue who is who and what is NLP at all. Most think NLP and the secret are the same thing or NLP and metaphysiscs are the same thing.

However my experience has been that the more I get to be "known" (even "big" in my market) the more the students have had experience and THEN only then they start finding out who is a "well known" name. Not necessarily who is a good trainer but who is well known.

I am not saying (I keep repeating this) that neing well known or "big" is bad or that the names mentioned before necessarily do a bad job. I am challenging the complex equivalence between fame and good.
My dad designed several successful ad campaigns for big companies and you being an expert at this know advertising is about perception and many cases about lying in an elegant way where you imply stuff without saying it. Sure you'll get the blonde top model babe if you drink beer!!!

The market is not educated, I am sorry. And yes I am exposed to many hundreds, remember I co-train with one of the co-founders (big gurus) so.... back at you... how many are YOU exposed to in order to challange us?

Have to go but will be back later.

Gabe,
You tease me because you are a man among men....don't worry, I'm coming, and when I do, I'll tell the most beautiful metaphors. And when I'm done telling those stimulating stories people will leave me with a brand new car that makes their life more and more exciting every time they drive it and they'll think of me and smile.
In fact, I'd love to see you selling cars. You'd be the man.
No McDs? I'd say it's not true, but I guess anything is possible.

It seems to me that there are two discussions going on here.

1. The size of a training and how it affects learning.

2. Fame and quality.

Gabe and Jonathan know far more about this than I do so I'll just throw in a couple of suggestions.

I believe that the great value of smaller trainings is that communication goes in both directions. The trainer can answer most questions and can calibrate the audience. In a large venue the communication is mainly one way, in which case why not save money and buy a DVD of the performance.

There is no necessary causal link between fame and quality. As my evidence I cite reality TV.

Have to agree with Gabe here. Different markets differ vastly and the generalizations here about savvy NLP consumers only apply in very small doses to certain locales. It depends significantly on the choices available locally and the extent of media/social-network visibility.

The Blindingly Bright London Phenomenon (so bright, it apparently blinds people to different realities in other locales):

London UK is bar none the most option-heavy NLP market in the world. You have more choices of trainers, more choices of seminars, in the same timeframe and in a smaller area of space -- than anywhere else on the globe. You have more study groups in a smaller region, more evening events, more opportunities to sample a greater range of trainers in 2-hour doses. It's a true phenomenon -- nothing else comes remotely close. That environment does produce, in general, a more savvy NLP consumer. How could it not!

If you live in or near London, you enjoy studying & developing NLP skills, and you also regularly avail yourself of LOTS of these opportunities, then count your blessings. You have no idea how envious others elsewhere are (or should be!) of your opportunities!


Markets Do Differ (a hell of a lot):

Switch gears to other cities in the UK and the market differs a bit (some, more than a bit). But nowhere in the UK does it differ as much as the UK differs from other markets. Largely because MANY people will travel within the UK to see someone they want to see. A much smaller percentage of people, elsewhere, are as willing to travel even smaller distances.

Switch gears to different places in the USA or Canada and the market changes even more. As Gabe said, Latin America is hugely different. Just as Australia is different. And Melbourne is different from Sydney which is different from Brisbane. Unless you're Bandler or Grinder, most people in the USA prefer to train with someone locally. Most US-based & Canada-based trainers do not travel as much as I do, so limit themselves to who's local, and who will travel in.

Explaining Chris Howard's "rise" (or, "How a huge bankroll and a massive advertising rollout can blind someone to better quality filters"):

The rise of Chris Howard is traceable partly to Tad, possibly also to Topher Morrison, and significantly to Universal Events, Australia's most 'prolific' promoter of NLP events. Karen Corban, who runs UE, began years ago by promoting Tad, then they ended their business connection, and she seems to have 'gone through' a series of other trainers, apparently looking for the cash-cow she could own a good piece of, and take global. Briefly, she promoted L. Michael Hall, Robert Dilts, and a handful of others, before she got hooked up with Chris Howard.

Karen has always advertised her latest "promotee" heavily with big color full-page ads in a range of new-age journals. I remember being down under in 2003 and seeing her ads for the first time for Chris Howard, "internationally renowned NLP expert..." (LOL! Wow! I go all over the globe, and I'd never heard of him!) Then articles started popping up in various magazines in 2003 (written by him? Ghost written? doesn't matter -- it's that the market 'perceives' him as a success author/exemplar).

Within a few years, Chris was solidly blocked into Karen's business model of having her primary "promotee" come to Australia twice a year -- the first time each year was intended to do enormous promo weekend trainings in most major Aussie cities... (the now infamous very expensive (FREE) course that everyone else pays a lot to get into, but gee you and your 10 special friends can get in free!) during which they'd upsell people to packages of longer (& expensive) courses. Then the 2nd trip down under would happen months later to deliver the expensive trainings.

The freebie shows are impressive. I was invited to visit one of Topher Morrison's free 2-day gigs a few Summers ago. And if rumors are correct, a hell of a lot of stuff that Chris Howard does... seems magically and "coincidentally"(?) to be *almost identical* what Topher does! LOL! How'd that happen? So many mysteries in NLP.

The results in terms of student skills from the longer courses they run, now that some of those students are showing up elsewhere with their blatant lack of evidence, is flagrantly lacking.

Gabe's right -- the average NLP consumer outside of London especially -- is NOT savvy.

The market clearly does respond to huge advertising budgets and monthly full-page color ads in multiple new-age journals. And I believe Chris Howard's UK organization is still affiliated with Universal Events (you can research it if you like).

And except in places like London where the average consumer of NLP courses IS much more savvy, and for good reason... the average consumer of NLP elsewhere is NOT savvy -- has few if any choices available, and tends to respond to the loudest advertising.

The Melbourne Australia dichotomy (where the difference between top quality training and, well, something many would describe at the other end of the scale, has never been more obvious):

Now Melbourne, too, holds a special place in my heart. Because it seems to me there are "two" NLP markets in Melbourne, and not much in between. Granted, I have a limited picture of that market, and perhaps James T can explain further a more accurate reality.

It seems to me that there is a group of extremely high quality NLP consumers... (typically the people that have trained with Roger Deaner and/or James Tsakalos -- many of which have trained with John Grinder, Chris & Jules Collingwood, Wyatt Woodsmall, Marvin Oka, and others.

And then there are the Tadpoles... the Universal Events / Chris Howard customers & students, many of whom truly don't seem to know what they're missing -- initially -- unless they explore alternatives long enough to begin to develop the filters to be able to tell the difference.

Mind you I'm not even going to seriously include the ex-used-car-dealer in Australia who USED to promote Topher Morrison in Australia, and who then went on to seriously offer a 2-day Practitioner course.

I so enjoy training in Melbourne, because it's one of the hardest crowds in the world to keep up with as a trainer. More so than most other places except perhaps for London, Melbourne NLPers that tend to show up at my events consistently challenge me to stay at my best (and keep pushing further beyond it).

Regards,

- Jonathan

adrian r wrote:

Similarly, believing that some big ticket events are going to offer the highest quality NLP purely and simply because they are the big ticket events is wrongheaded....

Yeah - I agree.

Then this from Gabe...

I am challenging the complex equivalence between fame and good.

And again - me too - what the frig's going on here?? Read the damn posts - I'm not equating fame or 'big' with necessarily GOOD.

I'm challenging the 'big' & 'stadium' = poor skills and 'bad'

I'm challenging judgment without firsthand EXPERIENCE.

And my point re: savvy (cos some of you have picked out this ONE point and gone awol with it) is that people don't tend to spend c.£1000 without wanting to (especially when it comes to buying information)...and if they WANT to - they have some idea/reference for the potential value of that info to them...even if it's that a friend recommended it.

Gabe I disagree with you whole-heartedly on the "The market's not educated comment" or maybe our definition of educated is different...

...and I wasn't challenging you on the market savvy thing - I was challenging those who bitch about skills transferrence to look at the NUMBERS...the DATA - and see that just because a couple of guys who train THOUSANDS every year might produce one or two tossers - doesn't necessarily make em a poor trainer now does it?

I was challenging those who have strong opinions about 'stadium trainers' to experience it firsthand before bitching about it.

And I was challenging our biases and the equivalences so many trainers sometimes seem to have/make...

and for doing so - I get put in the James = Likes Big Trainers = likes poor skills = cares only about money/fame BULLSHIT EQUIVALENCES!!

See how the "US vs THEM" was created...fascinating!!

=======

73 Trainers - including 4 Master Trainers Gabe...why - what number would have 'qualified' me in your head...I don't have to fucking qualify to challenge any of us to think about our customers in new ways.

=======

Your customers are VERY educated - they know what they WANT...

...

James,

As you know I sent you a pm. However for everyone to read I do want to clarify something out in the public.

You wrote:

And yes, lets talk numbers here.

These 'big' guys are training lets say (we'll make up a number) four thousand people a year....how many of those are YOU actually exposed to...400??

100??

40??....how many.

To that I replied...

back at you... how many are YOU exposed to in order to challange us?

I didn't meant trainers or master trainers.... MY mistake in not being clear enough since I was on a rush and place my question inside of a paragraph where it should've been apart.
I meant the students since you were asking Jonathan (and those who have agreed with him) to how many students of the big names have we been exposed to make the judgement we are doing.

And finally for the public domain...

I choose to radically disagree with:

Your customers are VERY educated - they know what they WANT...

I think I know a thing or two about marketing even if it is not my job, I believe this being the son of a guy who helped produced thousands of millions dollars for the companies he worked at (Pepsi-Cola, Levis, etc) doing their marketing following the idea "consumers don't know what they want and your job with marketing is to educate them". A nice way of saying marketing is to get people to think/perceive that what you offer as a company is what they actually want or need.

If I am loosing points with people (consumers as you call them) saying this, I am sorry but while the UK is slightly different from other places regarding product understanding it still very similar in many ways.

Now I go to bed since tomorrow I have a three hours long gig for 350 people where I do tell them they are not being trained, just given some ideas they could use... and that they can even choose to get proper training later on in smaller groups and for lot more time.
It is what I refer to as inspirational events... I aim to inspire people to do things BUT it is nothing more than that and still many will just have a good time with the lights, the live music and the nice words.
Funny thing is I charge very little at those events and still make a lot more than at other programs. Hmmm, McDonalds again?

Have a great day everyone (and James I am not challenging you or your expertise but I am challenging your argument).

Gabe

Jonathan Altfeld,

'I believe Tad has the legal right to do so... but I wish he'd take responsibility for polluting the field so flagrantly and stop doing so. Obviously you'll disagree, and you're free to'.

'WHY do so many of Tad's trainees, and WHY do so many of Chris Howard's trainees, seem to have such a low standard of knowledge/skill (when measured by more knowledgeable people)?'

'I don't resent Tad James or Chris Howard at all. I don't know those men, personally, how could I resent them?'

'If you look at the evidence (and also know what to look/sort for), if you've met as many of their trainees on multiple continents/in multiple countries as I have, you would have to come to the same conclusion: that they are actually producing incompetence, en-masse'.


The 'I don't resent Tad James......' part? Well you resent his Training methods or his success, same thing you may not resent Tad James personally but saying his training methods and students are lacking obviously directly reflects on him.

Tad James is far more successful & renowned in NLP than you are or ever will be. You could not achieve his level of recognition Worldwide no matter how hard you tried. Your CD's etc have not and never will outsell his. Your contributions to the field of NLP Worldwide are insignificant, Tad James created Time Line Therapy it is used not only by people trained by him but by many others in NLP also. Those are the facts.

It always amazes me how many people at the bottom looking up resent those at the top, it is not healthy and actually very detrimental to personal growth. Many do it on a subconcious level & don't realise they are doing it.

I've heard it a lot in NLP & Personal Growth from so many, 'Paul Mckenna is rubbish I'm more knowledgable in NLP.....he just got lucky breaks....got lucky to get on TV.....', 'Anthony Robbins isn't that great he just markets himself well I could speak better than him', etc , etc. Also in NLP 'this persons students aren't that good, they are not very knowledgable'.

Of course too with many of these people saying things like that there is a wide array of excuses as to why they are not as successful as these people, especially when faced with the inevitable 'if you are so good and knowledgable in NLP or your knowledge is as you claim greater than this persons how come you are nowhere near as well known or successful as this person is'. The excuses are important to continue to live in denial and not be too Introspective, and save ego when faced with comparosons to more well known and successful people. Just ask someone like Jonathan Royle on someone like Paul Mckenna, if only Jonathan got that break on TV first he's be as successful or more so than him; you have said you are not seeking fame fair enough, but Mr Royle certainly is.

You may notice Paul Mckenna, Tad James, etc don't put down any Trainers of NLP at least not publically as you have done above, whether that is personally or their students or their training methods.

Have you met any Tad James trained people you thought were exceptionally knowldegable? Or you would say ALL you have met trained by him are not that knowldegable or practically skilled.

Have you seen Tad James training material CD's, DVD's, or Books? What is left out in them? What is not explained well or clearly? As many even those outwith his organisation rate them as exceptional learning materials and very comprehensive. For there to be as you say so many bad students , there must be flaws in his system, or training methods, or both.

"Peter Daniels".

Offensive, defensive, offensive, defensive.

You've made a serious array of invalid logical level leaps (invalid conclusions drawn based on Polya's patterns of plausible inference -- also known to some as junko logic).

And you've extended a very inaccurate representation of at least some of the "facts. " Tad may have co-written a book on timeline therapy, but he didn't create it -- apparently he & Wyatt got the vast majority of their material during an extended session modeling Richard Bandler at a restaurant or bar one night. I suspect Eric Robbie may even have been there when it happened -- or likely would know who was. Trainers often like to tell the story of how Tad sponged for hours, furiously scribbling notes nonstop as Richard taught timeline exercises for hours, then Tad rushed off afterwards with a 6" stack of notes on napkins & such. And granted, to develop those notes into a book and methodology with Wyatt is a terrific accomplishment (though his "trademark", given the material's origin, has its own odor and usually leads to excessive giggling). To say he "created" it depends wildly on your unique definition of "created." A FAR more accurate thing we can say about Tad & Timeline Therapy is that he (a) co-formulated along with Wyatt the entirety of their writings from notes (b) coined the term TLT & trademarked it, and (c) got most of the original material for it -- directly from Richard Bandler.

Also. You attempted to insult me based on level of "success or recognition." Still imposing your own values? Do you actually... know... any NLP? I'm asking seriously. Weren't you listening before? NEITHER of those criteria matter to me at all. It's like you don't even use NLP throughout the conversation. Eliciting, Understanding & then utilizing people's values is like NLP 101, Peter. And if you're not using it all the time, then it's also not well-integrated into your communication or behavior, either. NO NLP TRAINING SHOULD STOP SHORT OF BEHAVIORAL INTEGRATION. Yet judging from results... Tad's courses clearly often do.

Here are some additional examples of NOT using NLP well in this conversation:

Apparently you either don't listen to what people say (or don't want to), you repeatedly impose your own values on others, you've leapt to several wildly incorrect logical level leaps... and we'll go with this one for the time being:

The 'I don't resent Tad James......' part? Well you resent his Training methods or his success, same thing you may not resent Tad James personally but saying his training methods and students are lacking obviously directly reflects on him.

Did you EVER learn to re-evaluate how you form generalizations? Did you EVER learn about logical levels of communication? Aside from still blindly imposing your values (success) on me, You've made multiple invalid logical level leaps from Behavior up to Identity, and then acted as if I did. When I certainly had not done so. You then blindly responded...

...as if I were judging Tad at the IDENTITY level when I'm not -- could not -- would never claim to --

...as if I were judging him at the BELIEF or VALUE level -- could not nor would ever claim to --

...as if I were judging him at the ABILITY or CAPABILITY level -- could not nor would ever claim to --

I judge him SQUARELY at the BEHAVIOR level. The presumption is that he has CHOSEN to adopt a training model and business model that is not producing as high quality trainees as he could.

Now. You might still be deeply offended by that, and that would be both your right, and your problem. After all, why would a trainer choose a second-rate training model, if he could do better???????? That would be mystifying, wouldn't it??????? (You might want to look at Tad's own behavior for evidence of his VALUES in action... to unravel that mystery....)

But DO NOT, Peter.... DO NOT put invalid words in my mouth and presume I'm saying anything about Tad's IDENTITY. I actually USE NLP in my communication. For you to leap to this sort of error... well... it raises FAR more questions about YOUR use of NLP than it raises about my intention.

Since you've decided to take the aggressive route with your recent posts, if you want any further dialogue from me, go ahead & make it clear to the entire reading audience where we can ALL do research on YOU. Let's find out about the man behind such an outrageous compound violation of NLP as this:

The 'I don't resent Tad James......' part? Well you resent his Training methods or his success, same thing"

We don't know the extent of your supposed training, so... essentially if you're completely new to NLP, the above might not be so surprising. BUT if the author of those words would claim to be trained in NLP... let's just say more experienced eyes & ears would find that phrasing... well... to be semi-diplomatic, an unfortunate reflection on the author's NLP skill or knowledge.

So. You apparently want to have a dialogue with me about what I find insufficient or lacking in the RESULTS produced by Tad's training. Maybe, if you're fully cooperative and open to the same evaluation you'd have hoisted on me.

So let's find out about you first. Otherwise you're just another upset heckler taking poorly-structured pot-shots from a position of anonymity. Where can we find out about your history online? Where can we do research about you and your own background? Hmmm???

- Jonathan