Do people that have little or no will power have low esteem?

It has been my experience that people with poor will power can sometimes also have self esteem issues!

For example at my gym the people that start an exercise program and don't have the will power to continue, usually think very little of themselves.

Do you think this could also be because they have poor visualisation techniques and cannot actually imagine themselves ever being fit?


What are you're thoughts?

Violeta,

I believe people with poor will power can sometimes also have self esteem issues but so can those with an abundance of will power. My old boss had zero will power but was smug as hell with it.

Your gym analogy is an interesting one and links with a conversation I had with my father in law about 20 mins ago. People with low confidence can actually be less likely to start anything new as in the beginning stages we are not very good at it. A confident person will look at this stage as an opportunity to learn and prove themself but a person with low self esteem will possibly see this as a situation where all their doubts of inadequacy are on display.

Hi Matt, you wrote,

people with low confidence can actually be less likely to start anything new as in the beginning stages we are not very good at it. A confident person will look at this stage as an opportunity to learn and prove themself but a person with low self esteem will possibly see this as a situation where all their doubts of inadequacy are on display.

I think you've hit it on the nail! Instead of an opportunity to learn they actually see it as an opportunity to show up what they perceive as their inadequacies so this in turn could stop them from having the will power to get through the initial period.

Going back to your old boss do you think that smugness can sometimes mask low self esteem? In my map sometimes people that are very smug are masking their insecurities!

Interesting,

Violeta

Hi Violeta

I think that the difference between someone who is confident and someone who struggles with self esteem is the internal representation that they make.

Using your gym example, could the people who struggle maintaining the programs be fixed on doing the activity and the discomfort associated with the activity as opposed to focusing on the benefits of doing the activity?

For example, if I focus on actually going to the gym and then having to do the activity and the pain associated with the activity.... the self talk begins and I make a movie of the discomfort associated with exercising.....

I may be making these representations in my mind .....of all the difficulties and discomforrt associated with the program .... thus I am often in a state where I do not have the will power to continue or even able to motivate myself to go. I feel bad and berate myself for not doing it.

In my experience, once I changed the focus and concentrated on the outcome of how good it will be to have a lean healthy body.... I began to focus on how good I will feel after I have completed the training / activity.

I also break it down to doing the activity....how good my body will feel when I complete the activity - the "Thank God that's over" feeling)-
or I focus on the feeling associated with proving to myself that I can do those 50 push ups or the triple drop set of bench presses.... I find that by focusing on having completed the training it is much easier to begin and stick to the program and also to continue the activities. :cool:

Alternately, I can focus on the consequences of not doing the activity and motivate myself that way. Though for me, focusing on the benefits and feeling better for having done the activity is more effective.

Perhaps as you read my post, you will have picked up that kinethetic is my main representational system, so for me focusing on the feelings associated with the training is my greatest motivator. Others who are more visual will be motivated by seeing themselves doing it or having completed the activity and so on. :cool:

I was reading about well defined outcomes last night and I think that also is important that the outcome is framed positively.

So instead of saying "I want to reduce my weight" perhaps framing it in the positively by saying -
" I want to have a lean healthy body"
" I want to have a healthy active lifestyle"
" I want to be actively participate in life and live till I am 111"

I think that this is a good place to start as it is then it is easier to make an effective and measurable plan to achieve those outcomes. Adopting a healthy eating plan and so on.

Food for thought.

Have a great day.

Frederic

Hi Frederic,

cool interesting post! I think you may be right you wrote:

I may be making these representations in my mind .....of all the difficulties and discomforrt associated with the program .... thus I am often in a state where I do not have the will power to continue or even able to motivate myself to go. I feel bad and berate myself for not doing it.

internal representations could be the cause of lack of will power!

As you said if you focus on how hard the training will be and what a bind or drag it is it will be difficult to motivate yourself!

Personally when I'm training I always focus on how good I'm going to feel once I've finished the session, I think of all the endomorphins that will be floating around my body and the feel good factor!

So I always feel motivated and regular training has become part of my lifestyle!

I agree that people can learn to have more will power by learning to frame their outcomes in a positive way! It sounds way more appealing to say:

So instead of saying "I want to reduce my weight" perhaps framing it in the positively by saying -
" I want to have a lean healthy body"
" I want to have a healthy active lifestyle"
" I want to be actively participate in life and live till I am 111"

It's back to the famous ,what do you want? and how will you know when you've got it? questions!

Interesante!

Violeta

Hi Violeta

I imagine, that is one of the reasons I have in the past failed to achieve my desired goals. I did not realy know what I wanted and how I planned to get there. I had fuzzy picture and did not take the time to fully make it a well defined map of how to achieve the outcome.

I just jumped in boots and all and hoped for the bests.

Sometimes it was a success other times not.

It has only been more recently that I have started to really use the process to define what I want to achieve and then make the time to go through the whole process, that things are begining to work out more consistently. I can work out what else needs to be done , fine tune the plan , add resources needed etc. Most importantly, I have a set of smaller tasks to achieve the larger goals that will eventually lead to the final outcome.

Like with anything new, its about using the feedback, learning to refine it and use it more effectivelly, by taking the action to practice it now, isnt it .

Have a great day/night.

Frederic

I think low will power and low self esteem are seperate things. However they do overlap sometimes, in that sometimes it's nto uncommon for people to have low self esteem and low will power.

Richard Bandler says hesitation/procrastination is one of the big problems on this planet. I believe feeling not good enough is one of the biggest fears of human beings, similiar to low self esteem.

I think lack of will power is a state. A state of 'laziness. Which is a phsyiology. We need to change our physiology or our internal represntations to develop a state of action.

Now, we could use several types of internal representation change. Visualizign the outcome. Pain.pleasure interventions. Or verbally finding their leverage point, fear of letting down their children, fear of looking bad.

Bandler calls the pain/pleasure motivation the propulsion system. Freud calls it the 'id'. In India it's called Joy and suffering. It's just the label we put on both ends of the spectrum of our emotions.

PAIN--------------------------------------------------------------PLEASURE
Fear Frustration Anger Neutral Comfort Joy Excitment Exileration
|_________________________________________________ __|


Just picking any labels at random to give you an idea.

I always say if people hesitate associate them to the negative consequences of not following through. ie. your chidlren will hate you.

Self esteem is just a generated abstract opinion (but in the form of feeling) of the self image based on it's ability to meet values. It will correct itself if you change self image to be more useful in meeting the values (easier) or change values to align with self image (harder). You don't need to change self esteem. Its evaluated. Get rid of beliefs that stop someone from doing behaviors that meet their values and the rest comes for free.

Basically, if you see yourself as constantly failing to meet lots of your values you feel shit! Makes sense doesn't it? This is also why people can be really nasty and feel good about themself!

Negative motivation also taps into this so it can be very powerful. If someone highly values being liked by their kids then you can really scare them about it! However, you can't assume that everyone wants to be liked by their kids. Some may prefer their kids to fear them, so you can scare them by "You will be only be liked by your kids not feared... aaaaaaah"..

Interestingly as people's values naturally change throughout life (especially after significant events), sometimes it goes out of alignment with self image and that needs to catch up a bit. This happens at different times of life and people don't feel satisfied about their life for a little while. They usually sort it out for themselves though unless something is in the way. This is why its worth paying attention to your kids' values rather than assuming your own will help. They can change fast when young. What's important at one age may not be at another.

Hi all,

Interesting discussions keep them coming!

Violeta

Violeta wrote:

Hi all,

Interesting discussions keep them coming!

Violeta

Thanks. A kind of interesting tangent to my last rant is a simple principle that not all emotions are conditioned, some are evaluated. It is only the conditioned ones that are worth trying to change directly. The evaluated ones are a red herring because they change themselves when something else changes. This is why going for image and beliefs supporting it can be really fast if you hit the right piece of the puzzle. The difficulty is not in changing it (there are many good ways to do that and NLP has plenty) but in finding the right thing to go for that will have a knock-on effect.

Hi John,

you wrote:

This is why going for image and beliefs supporting it can be really fast if you hit the right piece of the puzzle. The difficulty is not in changing it (there are many good ways to do that and NLP has plenty) but in finding the right thing to go for that will have a knock-on effect.

I believe that when you are able to find the right thing do that's when one becomes an excellent NLP therapist and in my mind that's the difference that makes a difference!

Thanks for all your ranting, I like it!

Violeta

mrlimbic wrote:

Self esteem is just a generated abstract opinion (but in the form of feeling) of the self image based on it's ability to meet values. It will correct itself if you change self image to be more useful in meeting the values (easier) or change values to align with self image (harder). You don't need to change self esteem. Its evaluated. Get rid of beliefs that stop someone from doing behaviors that meet their values and the rest comes for free.

I sometimes wonder if values are over rated. Values at the indvidual level (not the cultural level, being a generalization of individuals values) are complex. Why? Because I think we all toss around words like "empathy, understanding, caring, compassion" but how many of us live by it? Sometimes I think values are so stuck in time (nominalization) that it's very difficult to generalize values across all the contexts of or life, and hence it's difficult to only have one set of values.

I sometimes wonder if as values are so context dependant, that maybe they should be talked about in the same league as meta programs.

I think personally the last point is a good one that when we get rid of those limiting beliefs people we will be more empowered. But if they meet their values, it's a matter then of them having to choose their values (what's important to them)

Then once we choose our values how do we ensure we stick by them? We then have to put a time limit on them ie. someone thinks they're a good parent when they spend 2 hours a day with their child. Then is that the only way? It's a bit limiting. Do they need several ways?

What is self esteem? Esteem for ones self. Positive regard? I'd submit that positive regard is an aftermath of our behaviours to ourselves. Meaning, how would you show esteem for others? Be nice to them. Meet their needs. So would you then eqaute increasing self esteem by being nice to ones self?

anony67 wrote:

I sometimes wonder if values are over rated. Values at the indvidual level (not the cultural level, being a generalization of individuals values) are complex. Why? Because I think we all toss around words like "empathy, understanding, caring, compassion" but how many of us live by it? Sometimes I think values are so stuck in time (nominalization) that it's very difficult to generalize values across all the contexts of or life, and hence it's difficult to only have one set of values.

I sometimes wonder if as values are so context dependant, that maybe they should be talked about in the same league as meta programs.

I wouldn't underestimate values and information gained from research in this area (why chuck stuff away?) but they are very complex systems that are context dependent and even time dependent.

For example, what is important to you in a business relationship may be very different from an intimate one or an self-self one. Also, in terms of time, they fluctuate dynamically, not a fixed hierarchy which is an old and poor model. For example, you will value food much more when hungry. After eating the value will fall. You will value sex more if you haven't had any for a while! Some will fluctuate quickly, some will fluctuate more slowly.

Steve Andreas did a nice simplified summary of why static hierarchical models (how people usually think about values) are flawed conceptually. It is more useful he suggested to think in terms of heterarchy than hierarchy.

This is what Edelman was trying to move towards when he built his value driven artificial life form (although much simpler sets of values than human). There also seems to be a common pattern across the human race which suggests some biological basis.

A simple way of thinking about it is them being about what is worth paying most attention to as we cannot pay attention to all the information coming in. Which would be kind of like meta-programs.

In terms of meta-programs..

"Lakoff & Johnson (2000) argue that these metaphors for the mind conflict with what cognitive science has discovered. However, viewed as a metaphor, the concept remains of value."

Hi All
I am currently working my way through "I know what to do So why dont I do it" by Dr Nick Hall PHD

drnickhall.com

As I am working my way through the book, I am realising that chemical imbalances in our body can also influence will power and self esteem. These can also be controlled without the use of drugs by taking suplements, changing our diets and I think most importantly changing our beliefs, values and representational systems.

In the book, he mentions that a lot of the issues with will power and self esteem are related to the representational systems we use and how we perceive things in our lives. There is no good or bad emotions it is more about the context it is put in that directs our response to the stimulus.

I am just getting to the part about values and beliefs, so I will post more as I digest the information.


Have a great day

Frederic

Hi Frederic,

You wrote:

In the book, he mentions that a lot of the issues with will power and self esteem are related to the representational systems we use and how we perceive things in our lives. There is no good or bad emotions it is more about the context it is put in that directs our response to the stimulus.

How we represent and filter information is no doubt of the utmost relevance! Something that might stress me out might not have the slightest effect on my husband or child! Today I actually put something that was stressing me out in a different context and it ceased to do so like magic!

Amazing!

Looking forward to hearing more!

Violeta

For me it is a questino of context and motivation - given the right context and outcome I have all the will power I need to achieve the goal.

A different context or the wrong or no outcome and I have little or no will power to see it trhough. I notice that when in this situation i have more doubts about myself also so for me there seems ot be a link?

Violeta wrote:

Today I actually put something that was stressing me out in a different context and it ceased to do so like magic!

Fantastic self discovery Violeta.

Emotion is designed to initiate action - to "move us". When you find an appropriate action for the message it is delivering, it has then served its purpose and switches off naturally. Many people try to "shoot the messenger" instead of creating "a meaningful response to the message!".

It gets extra confusing because some emotions are more superficial or meaningful than others like some thoughts are more or less superficial than others. We often find it hard to tell the difference between the ones giving an important message about the present and others which are distracting conditioned responses from the past.

I am writing something about emotions at the moment and hopefully I will get the time to finish it over the next few weeks.

Hi John,

You wrote:

I am writing something about emotions at the moment and hopefully I will get the time to finish it over the next few weeks.

Good luck with this piece, from what I can gather from your posts it will be something special!

Violeta

mrlimbic wrote:

Emotion is designed to initiate action - to "move us". When you find an appropriate action for the message it is delivering, it has then served its purpose and switches off naturally. Many people try to "shoot the messenger" instead of creating "a meaningful response to the message!".

John I totally agree with you that emotions are designed to change our behaviour in the outside world. I'd be very interested to see your research when you finish.