Psychological disorders like anxiety, depression, impulsiveness,
excessive anger or worry, and obsessive behavior...

I just read Change Your Brain, Change Your Life, and the author
prescribes self therapy but also advocates medicine to treat
these disorders. The book focuses on relationship between
brain pathology and process with these disorders.

Hi Kris,

Medication can be very helpful in helping people to sort out problems due to problematic neurological structures or other biological dysfunction.

And when conventional psychological approaches are ineffectual, they are often the best alternative a physiologist or psychiatrist might have knowledge of.

And many of the symptomatologies you list above are just a collection of behaviours, which rarely might and usually not stem from a biological malfunction that cannot be easily mediated with changing behavioural structures over time.

So I think it's extremely useful in some cases and I also think there is a massive rate of inappropriate administration of medication for issues easily remedied by skilfully applied behavioural modification.

That's my experience, at any rate.

Be Well,

Michael Perez

Hi ,Michael wrote:

I also think there is a massive rate of inappropriate administration of medication for issues easily remedied by skilfully applied behavioural modification.

I agree whole heartedly doctors are often to ready to dish out the medication for behaviors that do not stem from a physical malfunction without looking to find out how to sort out the underlying cause of the symptoms! This is where NLP and hypnosis techniques do a marvellous job and really do change the behavioral structures that cause the symtoms in the first place!

Violeta

In 1996 I was given medication for 'depression' following a bereavement and this directly led to me losing about two years of my life on the psychiatric merry-go-round. This only stopped when I got off it and refused all further input from those trying to 'help' me.
I also ended up diagnosed as bi-polar, which caused all sorts of prejudices against me and lost me my job too.
I am convinced that if I had not taken the step of walking away I would still be taking medication now and going in and out of hospital on a regular basis.

I was going to say that I'm sure there are appropriate uses for psychiatric medication and some people are in a condition so severe that medication is the only option - but honestly...?

I don't really believe that any more, based on my experiences.

I think our current use of medication is a statement about our inflexibility and lack of imagination when dealing with mental illness, disorders etc and all the time that remains so, medication will be the only answer in most cases - and thousands (millions?) will be condemned to a life lived in a chemically altered state on drugs that often have life-threatening and/or stigmatising side-effects.

Waiting for the smiley? There isn't one for me when writing on this subject.

My thoughts, your reaction...

OK, here comes my story.

During a rather difficult period in my life (for a variety of reasons) about fifteen years ago, I was on prozac for about 18 months. It did help me to feel better, but it didn't make life really much better, or therapy that more effective.

What I really needed back then was a good Ericksonian therapist like Rubin, combined with a swift kick in the seat of the pants!

I did what I could with the tools I had at the time, and for some people, that includes medication. Did it help me? Not much, really, in my estimation.

Be well, and at peace,

Phil

I think there's absolutely necesary in many cases. Try having an operation without an anesthetic.

Many people say now we over medicate, such as Ritalin with kids.

I'd personally be very careful telling people to go off drugs or giving them advice without being a medical practitioner. You have to be aware of the side effects of coming off and things like that. I have a good freind who's a naturopath, and she gets very good results because she's willing to work in with the doctor.

If a patients on warfarin ( ablood thinner often aimed at the heart) she's willing to work in with their doctor and compliment it.

I mean this why you have to be very careful. If you give a patient health advice to eat more vegetables, and they eat greens and raise their vitamin K level and they're on warfarin it could kill them. This is why I personally dislike when someone's done a life coaching seminar goes out and starts giving people advice.

Sam,

What I've discovered is that just about *everyone* out there has a piece of advice for someone else. That's why it's so important to take personal responsibility to learn the things one needs to know to accomplish their own goals. Not that one should quit taking free advice -- far from it!! Rather that one should be able to sort out the "true" from the "untrue" and the "meaningful" (for them) from the "not-so-much".

Venus

Wise words, Venus. Thank you!

Phil

anony67 wrote:

I think there's absolutely necesary in many cases. Try having an operation without an anesthetic.

Many people say now we over medicate, such as Ritalin with kids.

I'd personally be very careful telling people to go off drugs or giving them advice without being a medical practitioner. You have to be aware of the side effects of coming off and things like that. I have a good freind who's a naturopath, and she gets very good results because she's willing to work in with the doctor.

If a patients on warfarin ( ablood thinner often aimed at the heart) she's willing to work in with their doctor and compliment it.

I mean this why you have to be very careful. If you give a patient health advice to eat more vegetables, and they eat greens and raise their vitamin K level and they're on warfarin it could kill them. This is why I personally dislike when someone's done a life coaching seminar goes out and starts giving people advice.

In light of that, I feel the need to restate:

I wrote:

I think our current use of medication is a statement about our inflexibility and lack of imagination when dealing with mental illness, disorders etc and all the time that remains so, medication will be the only answer in most cases - and thousands (millions?) will be condemned to a life lived in a chemically altered state on drugs that often have life-threatening and/or stigmatising side-effects.

I would also like to point out that all the examples given are not psychiatric disorders which was the subject of this thread - perhaps a check for agenda might be in order before posting, Sam...?

Just a thought

:cool:

At the moment I am a drugs worker, I have always been mindful that I am working with people who are slightly influenced by the methadone etc.

However I have found that they only sweat copiously when rejecting drugs, if that is the hypnotic intervention that is required.

I am slightly wary when I work with someone with a mental health diagnosis and are taking drugs that may be keeping them stable. If I change the equilibrium, there maybe severe consequences. I am talking psychotic behavior, schizophrenia ... I think I need further training to be comfortable with my confidence in this matter.

I really hope you can get that training Jane - it might be rarer than Hen's Teeth... push for it, I say.
I had some training on 'dual diagnosis'* from a psychiatric nurse from the Maudsley that was brilliant, I must say.
(*specifically people with drug and alcohol issues and mental health issues)

I actually think anybody prescribing or advocating psychiatric drugs and conventional treatments would learn a lot from taking some of those drugs for a month or so to see what they're like to be on...
I'd also recommend spending some time on an in-patient ward as a patient and seeing what that's like - it radically altered my perspective, is all I can say.
Prior to my hospital admission(s) I was working with people with mental health issues in a rehab unit and encouraging them to take their 'meds' etc with no awareness of what that might be like. I read up on them in the BNF and the MIND guide to psychiatric drugs (good book) regularly, but nothing prepared me for what they were actually like. Having facial paralysis and shuffling on haloperidol was the most shocking, because guess what...? You can actually see the horrified looks on the faces of people looking at you as you do your best to function...
I visited my workplace to say 'hello' while I was in that condition and I had to say "It's still me in here" to counter the looks of horror that their 'colleague' was now 'one of them'.
The subtle abuses and power games played by ward staff is probably a subject for another thread... just one example was the staff nurse who made a point of putting everybody's meds from the measuring pot into his bare palm before giving them to you to put in your mouth. Mmmm.

Hi,

Nigel wrote:

The subtle abuses and power games played by ward staff is probably a subject for another thread... just one example was the staff nurse who made a point of putting everybody's meds from the measuring pot into his bare palm before giving them to you to put in your mouth. Mmmm.

I find this abuse of power really disturbing! Yet it is often the case that a percentage of people which are supposed to protect those who are unwell actually in some sick way get enjoyment from the position of power they are in! My mother many years ago used to work as an auxiliary nurse on old peoples ward and she would come back with horror stories about how some of the nurses would treat the patients! With such mental abuse!

I tend to find that people that do this often have extreme personal issues that they have not had the courage to deal with and they themselves would benefit immensely from therapy!

Violeta

I found that percentage unfortunately much larger than I might have suspected. the worst ones were those that got me to trust and confide in them who then stitched me up when they put their reports in. They didn't expect I'd ever read any of them - but I obtained all of them! (Hospital admin were quite obstructive over this too and there were sections missing from one lot of notes that I requested)

It's the old story - you're nuts, so diagnose the rest of the world as sick and start fixing them one case at a time...

B & G said that the most effective person in a mental hospital ward was the cleaner and people became gradually less useful the more highly qualified and powerful they got - I can confirm that in my experience. I would also add that the level of mental instability and delusion increases the higher up you go also.

The most psychotic person I've ever met was a professor at the Maudsley Hospital...

Yes, I'm prejudiced on this subject - but that's my experience! I met some lovely people in hospital too - most were cleaners or other patients...!

Hi Nigel,

you are bound to be prejudiced if that's they way you were treated!

My mother used to say the same thing about the cleaners being the kindest an most empathetic!

Isn't it strange that sometimes the more power people get the more delusional people get, it's like that thread on over confident people that were actually not very good at what in their world, they thought they were really good at!

I think that lovely people do exist in hospitals it's just that they are special and stand out few and far between the rest . When you have to go into hospital for whatever reason, if you are privileged enough to have the choice you hunt these down and make sure that you are in their hands!

Nigel you wrote:

They didn't expect I'd ever read any of them - but I obtained all of them!


this is part of the problem with the British medical system. In my opinion there is not enough transparancy!

People should have the automatic right to have access to their records and should be more informed by doctors about their specific health situation and about how the doctors intend to make them better including all the drugs they are going to use, explanations of why they think this is the right choice etc!

I must say that I find that they Italians are much more aware of medical issues as medical procedured are explained in great detail to the patients. For instance when you go and have a set of blood tests because you are feeling poorly, or because your GP thinks you may have sugar or whatever. You go to the hospital or Lab and then you go and pick the tests up and you can pysically see and read all the results which can be understood because the abnormal values are highlighted!

Then it's your call to take responsibility for your health and take these results to your GP and you will go through these together and discuss the necessary procedures that should be taken, if need be.

Another thing I find extremely conforting and efficient is that your GP will refer you immediately to a specialist! Say you had a minor skin rash he would refer you to a dermatologist! You always know that you are in the hands of a specialist doctor. My children for instance go to the pediatrician when they are sick because he is specialist in that field!

If you are brought up with medical knowledge and awareness by the time you are adult you certainly know a lot more about them!

Violeta

Violeta wrote:

Isn't it strange that sometimes the more power people get the more delusional people get, it's like that thread on over confident people that were actually not very good at what in their world, they thought they were really good at!

How and when exactly does power corrupt might make an interesting thread.. mmm..

Can't write much about it yet myself coz gotta go right now but if someone would like to get the ball rolling with some interesting examples and possible factors I will join in when I'm back in later..

John and Violeta,

One of my very first jobs was as a psychiatric aide in what was then considered the next-to-the-last stop in our state mental health system. The only step below was a hospital for the criminally insane. Whatever that means.

And I can attest to the fact that there are many folks who work in those institutions who love power and like to lord it over the folks who are supposed to be in their care.

One can go to the opposite extreme, though, and it wouldn't take much to imagine that folks who are locked up in prison are abused by power-tripping screws (is that what they call them? I only know what I read in books or watch on Law and order) who get a thrill out of keeping another person down.

Then there's your average business where, if you pay close attention, you can see the look of "duping delight" that they can barely repress when they think they've got you where they want you.

People can be so cruel.

Venus

Hi Venus, you've sent goosepimples down my body!

What makes people be so cruel and get such satisfaction from it?

My mother used to say that humans are cruelest of all mammals!

Why do you think this is?

Violeta

Nigel Adams wrote:

In 1996 I was given medication for 'depression' following a bereavement and this directly led to me losing about two years of my life on the psychiatric merry-go-round. This only stopped when I got off it and refused all further input from those trying to 'help' me.
I also ended up diagnosed as bi-polar, which caused all sorts of prejudices against me and lost me my job too.
I am convinced that if I had not taken the step of walking away I would still be taking medication now and going in and out of hospital on a regular basis.

I was going to say that I'm sure there are appropriate uses for psychiatric medication and some people are in a condition so severe that medication is the only option - but honestly...?

I don't really believe that any more, based on my experiences.

I think our current use of medication is a statement about our inflexibility and lack of imagination when dealing with mental illness, disorders etc and all the time that remains so, medication will be the only answer in most cases - and thousands (millions?) will be condemned to a life lived in a chemically altered state on drugs that often have life-threatening and/or stigmatising side-effects.

Waiting for the smiley? There isn't one for me when writing on this subject.

My thoughts, your reaction...

Hi Nigel,

I haven't had any personal experience of such things - but what happened to you read like a horror story.

I (wrongly) thought all that went out with the Victorians and their 'bedlams'.

Happily, you extricated yourself. However, as you said, that leaves countless people caught in the web that you were in.

I thought that this forum would open my eyes....and it does on a daily basis.

I wish you well, Peter.

Hi Peter

"I (wrongly) thought all that went out with the Victorians and their 'bedlams'."

Officially, it has...! The view from the ground floor however is somewhat different to that from on high...

We don't chain people to walls any more, just to drugs, stigma and 'care packages'...

We don't label people 'mad' any more, now we diagnose MAD (mixed affective disorder)...

We don't use barbaric and arbitrary treatment regimes - all our paperwork is kept meticulously up to date...

We don't 'lock people up' we 'detain them under sections of the mental health act'...

We insure the best treatment possible... to make the most money for Big Pharma and to last as long as possible...

We no longer naively expect 'cures' we are in the business of 'management'...

Oh, Brave New World!

:cool:

Hi Nigel,

We insure the best treatment possible... to make the most money for Big Pharma and to last as long as possible..


absolutely there's a hell of a lot of money to be made!

Violeta