Anybody else see "New Tricks" on BBC 1 last night?

The NLP killer!

In the plot, a hypnotic script was used to induce a woman to kill her husband...


Joking apart, how far does anyone think hypnosis could make someone go...?


Comments anyone?


:cool:

Hi all,

If you missed it, here it is:

BBC iPlayer - New Tricks: Series 5: Magic Majestic


Must admit i did giggle somewhat at the character Brian Lanes explanation of the origins of NLP (about 7 minutes or so in)

Cheers,

Mark

I think effective suggestions can only inspire people to do things that they inherently know are good for them in some way. So if an individual had a good reason for believing that life would be better if they killed their husband, then they'd be open to the suggestion, so to speak.

Peace, Love, and Bicycles,
Turil
who does not think that life would be better if she killed her husband, but sometimes thinks that life would be better if he got slapped upside the head occasionally...

Mark, care to share the essentials of the amusing bit with those of us outside the UK (who aren't allowed to watch the clip)?

Hi Turil,

I think the co-creators were described as being two shrinks from America!

Who does the research for these programmes?

David.

The character Brian Lane describes NLP as ''being developed by two overheated shrinks in the 1980's''

Bought a smile to my face anyway

Cheers,

Mark

Wow, how craptacular! I learned more about NLP and hypnosis than I did in a whole month's worth of thrice-daily tooth brushing and flossing!

Of course a much more realistic portrayal of of Hypnosis has been done by the Beeb in the past. Here's a transcript from a BBC teevee show about the use of hypnosis in the construction industry.

Definitely more accurate than 'New Trick' was. Then again, that's not a hard target...

Be Well,

Michael Perez

Oh, and to the other half of the question.

Erickson experimented with trying to get people to violate their values without success.

Over the years, a few people have popped 'round the forum claiming to be able to do so, but that's almost always in the context of talking women into sleeping with them and usually seemed to include the unspoken presupposition that no woman in her right mind would do so.

The Chinese experimented with hypnosis in 'conditioning' POWs to turn traitor. These experiments were unsuccessful, so they resorted to long term 'brain-washing' tactics (sleep deprivation, long-term conditioning, etc.), however even using these extreme tactics, the results were temporary.

People can contrive highly controlled, highly surrealistic situations where people can do a simple thing (pushing a button, for example) that they think might possibly do something which violates their values (killing a kitten), but that's also quite difficult to stage and only the most compliant people will usually follow through with the action. And no kittens are harmed in the video at the other end of that link. Promise!

At least that's my view. I'll gladly stand corrected if someone can show me different!

Be Well,

Michael Perez

Using only positive reinforcement you won't get anyone to do something against their values.

You would need to use some very nasty tactics and situational engineering involving lying, playing on peoples insecurities and weaknesses, social instincts, playing people off against each other etc. for them to override them. Essentially that is moving into the realm of the tyrant not the hypnotist.

mrlimbic wrote:

Using only positive reinforcement you won't get anyone to do something against their values.

You would need to use some very nasty tactics and situational engineering involving lying, playing on peoples insecurities and weaknesses, social instincts, playing people off against each other etc. for them to override them. Essentially that is moving into the realm of the tyrant not the hypnotist.

Well, using positive reinforcement (very different than hypnosis) you can get people doing things against their values. It's not all that easy, and does take time, but it's possible.

Enjoy,
Michael.

Major Mark claims that he can't make you shoot your friend, but
he can convince you that your friend is not your friend but
a terrorist trying to kill you.

Karisma wrote:

Major Mark claims that he can't make you shoot your friend, but
he can convince you that your friend is not your friend but
a terrorist trying to kill you.

I think that's a useful distinction. Similarly, it's harder to get someone to tell you their secret and easier to convince them it's not a secret. I suspect that if you're creative enough, you can achieve almost anything.

I'll add to Michael's note about Derren Brown convincing a woman to "kill a kitten" that the woman knew full well that it was Derren Brown she was dealing with, and that he was most certainly not going to actually kill a kitten on television.

Of course, people can be pushed to the edge of their ability to cope, where they get so overwhelmed that they temporarily fall into a fight-or-flight response, where they are indeed likely to do things that normally go against their "normal" values in order to protect something/someone that is more valuable to them than lesser values such as social acceptance, laws, non-violence, or even their own health.

But still, even when one goes over the edge of rationality, "values" still function, it's just that only the most highly valued things are prioritized. Self-preservation being pretty much our number one priority in life, with "self" meaning anyone or anything that someone identifies as "mine", with a hierarchy moving from the center of "me" outward. When we feel threatened, we will defend our "selves".

Unless, of course, we master the Buddhist idea of non-attachment, and let go of the self! :-) (I'm working on it, but clearly still have a way to go...)

Peace, Love, and Bicycles
Turil

map002 wrote:

Oh, and to the other half of the question.

Erickson experimented with trying to get people to violate their values without success.

Over the years, a few people have popped 'round the forum claiming to be able to do so, but that's almost always in the context of talking women into sleeping with them and usually seemed to include the unspoken presupposition that no woman in her right mind would do so.

The Chinese experimented with hypnosis in 'conditioning' POWs to turn traitor. These experiments were unsuccessful, so they resorted to long term 'brain-washing' tactics (sleep deprivation, long-term conditioning, etc.), however even using these extreme tactics, the results were temporary.

People can contrive highly controlled, highly surrealistic situations where people can do a simple thing (pushing a button, for example) that they think might possibly do something which violates their values (killing a kitten), but that's also quite difficult to stage and only the most compliant people will usually follow through with the action. And no kittens are harmed in the video at the other end of that link. Promise!

At least that's my view. I'll gladly stand corrected if someone can show me different!

Be Well,

Michael Perez

Hi Michael,
Sadly,I wouldn't entirely agree.The bit about button pressing makes me believe you may be referring to the Milgram experiment,in any event,I'll assume that you're familiar with it.The thing that bothers me
is that no great amount of influence was being used,and the significant difference would seem to be that the subjects would easily do something that they believed might kill another human being,provided they didn't need to,say,find a blunt instrument and accomplish this for themselves.

Karisma wrote:

Major Mark claims that he can't make you shoot your friend, but
he can convince you that your friend is not your friend but
a terrorist trying to kill you.

I find it disturbing that anyone would ever consider this possibility.

Call me old-fashioned, but to even entertain this seems to me depravity.

(go ahead and give me LOTS of thumbs down)

Phil

Hi Andrew,

wonderful wrote:

Sadly,I wouldn't entirely agree.The bit about button pressing makes me believe you may be referring to the Milgram experiment...

I'm aware of the Milgram experiment.

It certainly is possible to get people to do things that violate their values. And a pattern of hypnotic suggestion by itself isn't an effective way to do that, in my experience.

And there are other means that are more effective, albeit temporary.

I hope that makes my position a bit clearer.

Be Well,

Michael Perez

If the Milgram experiment were repeated in 2008, would the results be the same?

Cheers,

Phil

Hi Phil,

They've been repeated informally (the original experiment is considered unethical) over the years and continue to deliver similar results.

Just recently, there was a new version of the experiment that was designed to work within modern ethical guidelines and the results were much the same.

Human beings don't evolve as a species quite that quickly, it seems.

Be Well,

Michael Perez

I remember seeing the experiment carried out on TV a couple of years ago on one show (I forget the name of the show but it was a comedy show involving Joe Public) & the results were very similar. People were prepared to shove supposedly lethal voltages through a test subject because a "scientist" in a white coat said it would be OK. As in the original experiment it was all staged.

I would call this social conditioning & compliance but maybe I have different definitions from other people

Cheers

The milgram experiment is about one peculiar aspect of human influence in that..

"people will go much further when they abdicate responsibility to a person in a position of authority with no apparent motive to deceive."

Simply, the subjects have deferred their ethics to someone else because they are perceived as knowing best. This way the usual constraints of people not doing things against their morals and values have been weakened.

It only applies when the authority figure is perceived as somehow "benevolent to a greater cause". In the milgram experiment this was a scientist working towards the greater ends of human knowledge. It requires a good theatrical set up to work.

This phenomena is the stock in trade of power structures around the world.