Hi people, I'm new to these forums. I have been interested in NLP for as long as I can remember. I was recently reading an article and came across this. I was wondering what everyone thought.

http://www.pennypresslv.com/Obama%27...s_Speeches.pdf

For me, I actually find it scary to think that this level of manipulation could be wielded on such a scale. You only have to look around you to see its effects...

Hi Sam

Watch CNN for a while now thats brain washing.

Just out of curiosity what is your level of understanding about NLP and or Hypnosis? If it's little to none then how can you make a fare judgment about the validity of such an article?

"This just popped into my head, if NLP&hypnosis was so powerful don't you think, that maybe someone form say a crime family would be in power?" Yes I know, its a stupid idea in it?

There was another thread about this a while ago, and that was boring to read as well.

J

I would say I have a fair understanding of the basic principles. I've never actually used NLP or Hypnosis.

So you find the fact that your new president is using advanced ericksonian hypnosis techniques to manipulate the masses into choosing him as president boring? That says more about you than it does me. You couldn't have read the whole document from the time I posted it, to the time you posted your nonsense (60 pages). And yes, CNN is brainwashing too.

Could you post the link to "the other thread"? And although my NLP is basic at best, I can see through your attempts. Did it take you longer than the others to learn NLP?

Hi Sam

(You said)
I've never actually used NLP or Hypnosis. <<<<<<<<<< That kinda invalidates an argument you bring to this topic, and demonstrates a low level "academic" base, so it means your arguments are based on false to fact reasoning, how can you base an argument with out having some base level experience?

Ask your self a few questions

Do you know the author of the article? If No how do you know what his agenda for writing such an article was?

What are the motives behind the article?

If your own understandings are only academic then how do you know what has been written is a valid Brake down (dichotomy) of whats going on?

I will see if I can find the link, I only read the thread I did not subscribe to it, and I don't recall the title of the thread.

Please don't think I am being offensive, it's just really easy to get caught up, in nonsense, If you are coming into an argument with out a solid user base.




Jay




"Note of function"
The use of the word "argument" is to depict the idea of "debate"

Links added after the first part of the note was posted.

http://www.nlpconnections.com/advanc...-patterns.html
http://www.nlpconnections.com/talk-a...html#post72891
NLP Connections

Jay Budzynski wrote:

Hi Sam

I've never actually used NLP or Hypnosis. <<<<<<<<<< That kinda invalidates an argument you bring to this topic, and demonstrates a low level "academic" base, so it means your arguments are based on false to fact reasoning, how can you base an argument with out having some base level experience?

Ask your self a few questions

Do you know the author of the article? If No how do you know what is agenda for writing such an article is?

What are the motives behind the article?

If your own understandings are only academic then how do you know what has been written is a valid Brake down (dichotomy) of whats going on?

I will see if I can find the link, I only read the thread I did not subscribe to it, and I don't recall the title of the thread.

Please don't think I am being offensive, it's just really easy to get caught up, in nonsense, If you are coming into an argument with out a solid user base.




Jay




"Note of function"
The use of the word "argument" is to depict the idea of "debate"

The thing is, you really haven't bought anything here that could in the slightest way be constrewed as a debate/argument or discussion. You flippantly label the whole thread, without reading (I may add), boring. Which, in my honest opinion is the height of ignorance.

I think you are the one who needs to be asking yourself some questions.

I mean, do you have 25 years of experience in NLP?

Hypnosis/NLP expert discusses Obama’s use of mind control techniques on radio

Dr. Horton, who has been working in the field of hypnosis and NLP for 25 years has called Obama’s methods clearly the use of hypnosis and effectively “Mind control.”. The discussion on this radio program describes Obama’s use of the 48 Laws of Power, by Greene, a treatise on mass deception, total absence of emotion. [sic]

Obama is often referred to as detached emotionally, and not just “cool” but in fact so detached as to be of concern to some people. Discussed is Obama’s ability to project people’s hopes and dreams onto him, and Obama’s use of hypnosis to get masses to view him as the vehicle to get whatever they want through Obama’s vague “yes we can”, “change” and “we are the ones we have been waiting for” speeches.

The discussion addresses Obama’s cadence rhythm and speaking tone, taking breaks after 5-8 word phrases, and how he cleverly uses pauses such as “together, ...as we look to the future,” to send subconscious messages we are not even aware of.

One specific hand gesture being used by Obama discussed was Obama’s rousing emotion from the audience, and then touching his face, or tie, as a method of subconsciously transferring those emotions onto him by bringing the person’s focus back to him while in that elicited state. Also discussed is how Obama morphs into a different person with different voice depending on which group he is talking to.

Sam

(You said)
The thing is, you really haven't bought anything here that could in the slightest way be constrewed as a debate/argument or discussion.

Yes I know! and thats the point nether have you. end of topic!


Jay

PS. Someone displaying brazen ignorance followed by them being patronising usually leads to offence.

Hey Sam,

It's important to remember that Ericksonian techniques are all about 'vagueness' which means almost every politician, business leader, orator, newscaster, sports coach you see on the television will speak using language that could be identified as 'hypnotic'. Just because it could be hypnotic doesn't mean it is.

The beauty of the ericksonian model is that it is conversational and therefore is actually being used by every single person, every single day - including you. Erickson's art, and the art modelled by Bandler and Grinder when NLP was going through it's childhood, was that it appeared as if Erickson was just talking, just having a conversation, you know. People changed because the vagueness of the language allowed them to go inside and apply it to their own subjective, specific experience and it was that that made it hypnotic.

Therefore, this report could be written about almost anyone who has a body of public speaking work ready to be analysed.

Also this part of the report made me smile (and give up reading) -

What Obama is doing is in effect the same as if he dangled a silver watch in front of us and said “you are getting sleepy and going into trance....you have an unstoppable urge that you cannot resist.....you must vote for Barack.” In fact, as discussed below, Obama was actually caught at least once saying something very similar with his own lips. Yes, Obama was caught giving an overt hypnotic command to vote for him

An 'overt hypnotic command' or just a politician who is a fantastic speaker, using excellent language and looking for votes? He was running for the biggest political office in the world for goodness sake.

What does the writer of the article expect him to say/do instead? "look guys, if you fancy, I mean, if it's not too much trouble, would you please vote for me. The other guys really, really good too. He's a little old and his running mate is really quite hot if a little badly informed but they are real, real nice folk. You can vote for them if you want but I would really like it if you could vote for me. Please?"

Jeesh! Give the guy a break.

My personal opinion? Go and listen to Obama's speeches and take them as an excellent opportunity to model someone who has managed to motivate and inspire the majority of the planet with his words. That is not something to be judged that is to be praised and viewed with big 'learning opportunity' eyes as wide open as you can get them.

Oh aye, and a word of beleaguered admiration to the person who took the time to write the 67 in-depth, massively-researched pages!

Brian

p.s Only a brazen ignorant person would type such offensive reply.

Jay Budzynski wrote:

Sam

(You said)
The thing is, you really haven't bought anything here that could in the slightest way be constrewed as a debate/argument or discussion.

Yes I know! and thats the point nether have you. end of topic!


Jay

You have a serious ego my friend. It's sad to see actually. Have you done a few NLP courses and feel this is your stomping group? I come here stating that there's evidence to suggest that the US president is using advanced NLP in his speeches and TV interviews (of which I provide an analysis in pdf format). I know that, most politicians use some form of manipulation techniques to get people on their side, but nothing like is being displayed by Obama.

And I take it your answer is No, you don't have 25 years NLP experience. It's quite apparent.

This is the problem, people do a bit of NLP and think they know all the answers.

Sam, I get the feeling you're more interested in getting a link to that article onto yet another spot on the Internet than in discussing how speechwriters and speech-givers persuade their listeners. Partly this is because you came onto the forum and posted this as your first message. That's not proof of any kind, but it makes me wonder.

Are you at all interested in changing my mind on this point?

So Sam, I take it that Shakspeare was a master hypnotist given his command of language? And that the secret of Rasputin's uncanny persuasiveness was NLP?

Or maybe they were just people who, you know, were pretty canny in their ability to use words. Face it...

1) some people are more gifted with this stuff than others

2) for people whose natural charisma is limited, it's possible to hire the skills of PR professionals, speechwriters, etc to polish their image. Even those who have some flair for this stuff spend plenty when the prize of the presidency is at stake.

3) anyone's use of language will use NLP patterns, since they're implicit in every utterance we make. NLP provides tools to explore language, and as such any bunch of words can be unpacked and labelled in ways that seem clever to people who are easily impressed.

int80 wrote:

You have a serious ego my friend. It's sad to see actually. Have you done a few NLP courses and feel this is your stomping group? I come here stating that there's evidence to suggest that the US president is using advanced NLP in his speeches and TV interviews (of which I provide an analysis in pdf format). I know that, most politicians use some form of manipulation techniques to get people on their side, but nothing like is being displayed by Obama.

And I take it your answer is No, you don't have 25 years NLP experience. It's quite apparent.

This is the problem, people do a bit of NLP and think they know all the answers.

I'm missing something, Sam. Whose 25 years of NLP experience are you using as comparison to Jay's skills or anyone's here? Yours, perhaps? The author of the article? Years, schmears - I haven't seen a great deal of skill demonstrated by either. Jay is a respected member of this community who has consistently shown us real chops. We also have a forum guideline about personal respect, which you're edging increasingly close to the wrong side of with your remarks.

Wow, Looks like this discussion went a bit mental while I was replying!

Sam

You first post was the typical lets start an NLP slam fight, all my post have been respectful, apart from the last "2" and I have only asked you to qualify your reasoning base, you never answered, the qualifying questions, the typical format that a troll or a sockpuppet follows, You have not introduced yourself to the forum,

As for my Ego that died a long time ago, and if anyone has an ego it would the person provoking a fight, and calling names.

And as for NLP being my turf who gives a fuck about NLP, its a set of heuristics rules of thumb, that has as two primary language models, the Milton model, and the Meta-model, most people learn the meta model has a model based in linguistics, when it's in fact a model based primarily in "logic". something that someone who knows nothings about NLP works out.

Now we can be nice- or we can play trances wars.

HeadStrong wrote:

Hey Sam,

It's important to remember that Ericksonian techniques are all about 'vagueness' which means almost every politician, business leader, orator, newscaster, sports coach you see on the television will speak using language that could be identified as 'hypnotic'. Just because it could be hypnotic doesn't mean it is.

The beauty of the ericksonian model is that it is conversational and therefore is actually being used by every single person, every single day - including you. Erickson's art, and the art modelled by Bandler and Grinder when NLP was going through it's childhood, was that it appeared as if Erickson was just talking, just having a conversation, you know. People changed because the vagueness of the language allowed them to go inside and apply it to their own subjective, specific experience and it was that that made it hypnotic.

Therefore, this report could be written about almost anyone who has a body of public speaking work ready to be analysed.

Also this part of the report made me smile (and give up reading) -



An 'overt hypnotic command' or just a politician who is a fantastic speaker, using excellent language and looking for votes? He was running for the biggest political office in the world for goodness sake.

What does the writer of the article expect him to say/do instead? "look guys, if you fancy, I mean, if it's not too much trouble, would you please vote for me. The other guys really, really good too. He's a little old and his running mate is really quite hot if a little badly informed but they are real, real nice folk. You can vote for them if you want but I would really like it if you could vote for me. Please?"

Jeesh! Give the guy a break.

My personal opinion? Go and listen to Obama's speeches and take them as an excellent opportunity to model someone who has managed to motivate and inspire the majority of the planet with his words. That is not something to be judged that is to be praised and viewed with big 'learning opportunity' eyes as wide open as you can get them.

Oh aye, and a word of beleaguered admiration to the person who took the time to write the 67 in-depth, massively-researched pages!

Brian

Thank you for you response. I appreciate it.

His entire persona and image is one big PR campaign (as with all presidents). He is a puppet of finance capital (Zbigniew Brzezinski + David Rockefella et al), and is a proven liar. He was the only person to vote in favour of a unilateral bombing campaign against Pakistan, a nuclear arms baring nation. If you take the time to read some of the end of that PDF where quite a number of NLP experts analyse his speeches, you will see he is just a huge make believe tail created through auto-queue read NLP-loaded speeches.

I don't like youtube, but sometimes it amalgamates some otherwise unknown information.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20RGookyRrM[/ame]


Maybe you've all just become too jaded about manipulation to the point that you think there is nothing wrong with it. Personally, I think it stinks and should be out in the open. People should be able to chose the president of their country based on their merit, not how well they can influence their opinion through words alone.

Have a nice day.

We've come to a moment of choice here, Sam. One is to play nice - another is to have this thread moved to Fight Club. Or I can make it and save you the trouble.

Hi Sam,

"Personally, I think it stinks, and should be out in the open."

Well let's see ...

There are over 2,300 professional political consultants in the Washington, DC, Yellow Pages, and you can bet your boots every single one of them knows about language and wording and speech-making and influence.

And that every candidate for office - for city Mayor, for state Governor, for Congressman (or -woman), for US Senator - both employs professional consultants and speechwriters - AND wishes they had the powers of oratory that President Obama has.

In other words, get real, Sam. And get past the idea that there are "secret techniques for manipulating the masses". They ain't so secret any more. Every pro knows them, and about them, and uses them.

And just about every serious political journalist knows about them too. (See for example, Alpha Dogs: How Political Spin Became a Global Business, by James Harding, published only last October.)

And get this too, Sam: fancy speechmaking techniques on their own won't get you elected. In modern democracies you need: (a) money, (b) the right amount of respectability to begin with, (c) the backing of one of the parties, (d) a squeaky-clean record, and somewhere along the line, (e) the right policies.

The question you should be asking yourself is not, "Oh, this is scary, secret, dangerous stuff - what can I do, what can I do, how can I stop it?" but rather, "What can we do - what can I do - to make sure that the good guys get it, and get to use it as much as the bad guys?"

By which I personally mean people like Karl Rove (look him up and see if you don't think people like him are the real scary prospect).

And since you brought it up, I do have 25 years of experience in nlp - and I have never heard of this guy Horton. But I do know that right-wing talk-radio in the US just LOVES to have people like him on their programs, and just CREAM THEMSELVES at having his kind of "authoritative" pronouncements all over the airways.

Know why? 'Cos it's trashing their "opposition". While at the same time, claiming earnestly and with a straight face that they would never stoop to such a thing ...

As if calling it "hypnosis" and "mind control" isn't in and of itself an attempt to control the minds of THEIR listeners.

Or don't you get it, Sam? Is your understanding of both the wider processes at work here, and the wider contexts they work in, that limited?

And by the way, how old are you?

And has anyone ever called you counter-dependent?

Eric.

Hi Sam

It would take me days to have read all of that article but I have watched and listened to some of Obama's speeches.

He seems to me to go into preacher mode (know what I mean?), sounds like a baptist preacher preaching about what your dreams mean to him and what our dreams mean to you and it seems to me he is quite good at this. Perhaps as good as Martin Luther King and maybe influenced by his style and that's probably why I did not think about Milton Erickson or NLP as as relating relevantly to something else.

As for CNN. I watched a lot of Fox News before the election and CNN have nothing on them as far as brainwashing is concerned and they were not pro-Obama although they seem to have cooled right down now.

That's what I thought/think anyway.

Is Obama Using NLP?